A Scout is Thrifty...

[SSScout]

"He works to pay his own way..."

 

Girl Scouts sell Cookies.

 

Boy Scouts sell Popcorn.

 

We have both good feeling and bad about these "traditional" fundraisers. Won't go into that here.

 

The national organization of each has arranged these opportunities to make money for units, Councils and the National (not to mention the Trailsend and Murray Cos.). Varying shares of the profits.

 

How 'bout this: Give each Scout Unit an apportionment or goal. Make it calculated on the number of Scouts and Adult leaders and age (experience?) of the Unit. Let the Unit develope a project/plan for the gaining of the filthy lucre. Spaghetti dinner, carwashes, christmas trees, flag placements, 'Rent-a-Scout'. whatever. Even selling POPCORN. After expenses, Unit keeps a third, a third goes to Council, a third goes to National. Necessary paper work and accounting.

Camps are bought and maintained, salaries are paid, classes are held.

This would not replace "user fees" (camp fees, class fees, membership dues, insurance dollars, etc.)or "fundraising" (tapping corporate deep pockets).

But it might let units do local stuff and avoid the comparison of cheaper cookies/popcorn versus supporting Scouting ("I don't want to buy such expensive popcorn, but here's $20"). More better local publicity?

Give the DE and UCs another reason to come around and back pat and "attaboy" the units. Another ribbon and placque and patch?

 

What think thou?

[CalicoPenn]

And if a unit doesn't reach it's goal, then what? Send them to bed without desert? Not allow them to participate in any of the council's reindeer games? Oh, I know - don't recharter the unit at rechartering time - that'll show those units that failed to reach their goals.

 

While the idea may sound good on paper, in practice, I think it would be a very big mistake for the BSA to become a "pay to play" organization. Think membership numbers are too low now? Wait until a policy like this is implemented. May as well just raise dues to whatever the apportioned amount per boy and adult leader would be - it's essentially the same thing.

 

Calico

 

Part

 

 

[evmori]

Calico makes a great point.

 

And comparing Boy Scout popcorn to Girl Scout cookies is like comparing a Maybach to a Chevy! One is, while good, high priced and the other, while good, is more affordable.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Eamonn]

I really don't think National needs any more money!!

Why not just charge each family a "Council Fee"?

Do away with popcorn and FOS!

$100.00 per family per year. ($2.00 a week)

Free the professional staff from having to spend so much time raising money so they can get paid!!

Make Councils work within a real budget?

Make Membership and Program the big and most important things.

Less paper work and it would be fair to everyone.

Eamonn.

 

[Lisabob]

Fair to everyone, that is, except for those families who cannot afford it. And don't tell me it is merely a matter of priorities. That's always true whenever it comes to money but it is a poor explanation for why Johnny can't join cub scouts. Heck I don't think I'd be willing to pay an additional $100 per year council fee as a condition of my son being a scout. Let me choose whether (and how much) to give to FOS but don't require it. Not to mention that many people prefer to give their extra cash directly to the program, instead of to some higher level where who knows what it would be spent on (perhaps the SE goes golfing? the council builds a superfluous new HQ?)

[CalicoPenn]

Pre-emptive apologies to SSScout. As I re-read my post, I realized that the first paragraph came out a bit snarkier than I intended. Mea Culpa.

 

My point in that was that I'm not sure what enforcement mechanism would be to ensure compliance, and I'm afraid the only things that would ensure compliance are rather punitive, and would be a big turn-off for parents, leaders, and sponsors alike.

 

Calico

[Eamonn]

Lisabob

Units could if they wanted opt to raise the council fee making it a Unit budget item?

From my point of view, what we have now just seems unfair.

Some people do support the Council by donating to FOS and participating in Council fund raising events, while others do nothing.

I also kinda think that if we paid a fee councils would have to be more accountable for how the money was spent.

Of course the sad thing is that most Councils say that it costs a lot more than $100.00 per person to provide the services that they provide.

 

Eamonn.

[hotdesk]

So stop FOS and popcorn and charge each family $100?

 

NOT ENOUGH!

 

The current amount, per scout, mentioned by FOS is something like $109. That is per scout. If you stop doing FOS then each family needs to contribute at least that amount.

 

Then you take away popcorn. Our troop alone makes roughly a $1,000 contribution to the council for this. If we divide that by the number of registered scouts in our unit that gives them roughly another $33 contribution.

 

So the total that our scouts would have to donate just to the council/national to make up for this is $142. When I compare this to our current amount charged to the scouts for Dues and Registration that is a $130 increase. I don't know how many of our scouts and their parents would be 1. willing to pay this amount and 2. able to pay this amount.

 

FOS is a good campaign. Not only does it "go after" families, but is also goes after bigger coroprations and the community at large. It brings money in from the outside.

 

Popcorn is also a good fundraiser. In our Council no unit is forced to sell popcorn. If you don't want to sell popcorn then you simply don't. If you want to give your scouts a chance to earn funds for their Scout Accounts then you do it. Everyone goes in knowing the amount of work necessary and the cost associated with the products.

 

Membership is already a prime concern of Boy Scouts of America. That's why we get Professionals that try to forge numbers. That's why in our Council Membership Staff and Professionals apply large amounts of pressure to Scoutmasters and Cubmasters to recruit more.

 

I have nothing wrong with the way things are now. Keep FOS. Keep Popcorn. Maybe simply evaluate the Council's ability to be financially sound.

[Gold Winger]

"The current amount, per scout, mentioned by FOS is something like $109. That is per scout. If you stop doing FOS then each family needs to contribute at least that amount."

 

In my council they say the amount is about $35. Maybe there is an economy of scale as my council is large.

[evmori]

So the issue is not enough units support FOS or the popcorn sale. That's no surprise. FOS hits up the volunteers! The FOS folks should focus on the people in the community! And popcorn is overpriced! A unit can get more bang for their buck with many other fundraisers.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[hotdesk]

Yes units can get more out of other fundraisers. HOWEVER, no unit is forced to sell popcorn. If you don't want to then don't. Let's leave this fundraiser available and running for those units that want to do it. For those that like the organization (incentive program, incentives for selling over $1200 as a scout, etc), the help provided by the district staff, and much more.

 

Nothing stops you from doing this fundraiser and others. Nothing stops you from not doing this fundraiser, but doing others. If you want to provide popcorn sales then simply thanks for supporting your local council. If you don't then okay, fine.

 

Our unit uses this fundraiser as one of many. I would not want to stop participating in this fundraiser and FOS and be forced to meet a district or council established goal.

 

Currently our FOS Program offers free rank advancement patches for meeting the district established goal. While our unit usually makes this goal (we've only missed it once out of the 10 years I've been with the troop) other units miss the goal constantly.

 

Because they miss this goal constantly many unit level scouters get upset about the goal and the way it is established. I would not want the district to establish a goal for fundraising. I would not want the unit to establish a goal either.

 

The unit knows the fundraising capacity that it has. The unit should be able to keep the money that it has raised. No one should force the unit to make a contribution to the council or district beyond what is required during rechartering.

[Eamonn]

"No one should force the unit to make a contribution to the council or district beyond what is required during rechartering."

???

What is required?

I know in our Council $10.00 goes to National for membership and $1.00 goes to insurance.

The Council doesn't see a cent!!

Ea.

 

[Oak Tree]

A pack doesn't have to do popcorn or FOS. Our first year as a pack we were focused on raising money to get started. We told the council that if any families in our pack had money to donate to Scouting, we were going to ask them to donate to the pack first. They didn't try to force us to do FOS.

 

I do think it's odd that councils can't charge any fees, and have to raise it all. I think that the amount of money it takes to support the council would drop significantly if we didn't have to pay all those people who spend so much of their time fund-raising.

 

I think both Eamonn and LisaBob have good points, and at times I've found myself agreeing with each of them. In fact, hardly any youth activities are fully self-supporting. Most get donations from someone, or get some tax-support, or local community support, or whatever. But most also are not free. The only question is where do you draw the line. I think it would be fair for councils to charge something.

 

I do wonder what all that money goes for. We've talked about this before, and I know that there's no way our units are getting their money's worth if it's costing the council $120 per boy to support us.

[Lisabob]

Just to put things into perspective for myself, I went back and looked at what our family spent on scouting in the last year. I don't think we're an unusual troop in terms of costs, except perhaps for the fact that every other year we go far away to summer camp. But here's the run-down I came up with.

 

First there are troop dues, which cover BSA registration and a subscription to Boys Life (for youth - I get Scouter but I don't know that this is paid for out of our registration fees). That's $30 for my son and $30 for me. Our troop also charges a one-time equipment fee of $20/person but my son wasn't new to the troop in the last year so I won't count that.

 

Running total: $60

 

Then there are camping fees associated with monthly troop camp outs. Most months the fee is $15/person and covers site fees, food, registration, and transportation. I go to about one camp out a year. My son goes to about 10. So for 11 "typical" camp outs the cost is $165.

 

Running total: $225

 

This does not include additional fees for a couple of camp outs where more expensive activities occur - like luging at the US Olympic Track (extra $50) or dog sledding in the Upper Peninsula (extra $200) or skiing/snowboarding (extra $60-100). We don't always do these because of the cost but my son did go luging so add in $50.

 

Running total: $275

 

Then there are "special" activities like our annual lock-in which costs about $15/person and I attend too because it is one of our biggest Webelos Recruiting events and I'm in charge of that for the troop. So there's $30. Or a troop night at the bowling alley or similar, on election nights when we can't get into our regular meeting location and occasionally in the summer, usually in the neighborhood of $10 each. Also a couple of district and council one-day events like district winter hike, typically 2 or 3 of these in a year costing $15 each. All together roughly another $80 for these "special" activities in a year.

 

Running total: $355

 

Then summer camp, typically about $250 when you add in "extras" like cost for special projects or activities but last summer it was closer to $450 because we went halfway across country and there were added fuel, camping while traveling, and food costs. I don't typically attend, just my son.

 

Running total: $805(for far-away summer camps)/ $605(for closer summer camps)

 

Then new uniform pieces and under-layers for growing boy in the range of $70 (if we're frugal), plus occasional minor gear let's say another $50. Happily our troop has a good range of gear to borrow so we haven't spent much lately on big-ticket gear items.

 

Running total: $925/$725 depending on where they go to camp that summer.

 

This is a fairly "bare bones" assessment. It doesn't include my contributions to troop fund raisers, to the Family FOS and District FOS, and to our council's Wood Badger association. It doesn't include a variety of small "extras" that come up here and there. It doesn't include out-of-pocket expenses that we leaders all pay from time to time to make the unit program work. It doesn't include fuel cost of driving to/from events. It sure doesn't include the cost of any bigger "high adventure" activities. And probably a bunch of other little things.

 

I don't begrudge the money we spend on scouting because I see value in what we get back. And my son does do some fund raising on his own to help defray costs. And some of the above arrive in the form of birthday/Christmas gifts.

 

But if you want to tell me that now on top of the $725-$925 plus we're spending on scouting on an annual basis, that I should also pay a large annual council fee? And that I won't have any say over how that council money is used? And, realistically speaking, that not only won't I have much/any say, but I probably won't even know how it was used? Yeah, my inner New Yorker will probably surface!

 

Honestly, looking at all of this, I don't know how troops in areas that aren't solidly middle class can really provide a highly active program! Unless they have access to cheap, local places to camp, the costs could easily become prohibitive very quickly, without even beginning to think about financial support of the council too. And when we price our program out of reach of less well off families then I think that is extremely myopic and sad. But it is also what I guess I see in our own district, especially once you look beyond Cub Scouting.

 

 

[SSScout]

Okay, so some units sell popcorn and some don't.

 

How do the pros get paid and the camps get taken care of and the Scouters get published?

 

I was just told that our District (and also several others) didn't meet the FoS goals recently. I know from talking to folks at R/T and else where that not a few units don't sell p/c and therefore don't contribute to the greater weal. Fund raise, sure, but the bucks stay home.

Here's why they don't sell p/c (anecdotal, of course):::

* We don't want to compete with the Cub Scouts, because we know that's how they make their money*

* The p/c is overpriced and folks don't buy it .*

* We don't like the hassle of the ordering/bookkeeping/storing/marketing/ etc.*

*What's the Council done for us? Why should they get a share? Doesn't FoS power the Council? Why should the p/c company get such a big share?*

* Our boys don't like the prizes. They don't see the result of their effort. Our fund raising project lets them see the results of their efforts up close*

*

 

Calico: Your "enforcment" point is well taken. I don't have an immediate answer to that. But I do know that

(1)there are a fair number of Units out there that do not contribute to the National or Council expenses except as they are charged for activities and dues.((and we all know the activity fees and dues rarely cover all the expense))

(2)a fair number chaff at the popcorn idea.

(3) there are organizations out here that make sure their member groups are aware of the cost of their business and what a "fair" share of that cost might be. Guilt tripping? Maybe so, but one can only ask for so much out right charity. One gives as one is led to give and as one sees the need.

 

Once upon a time, I remember Scout Units that held Spaghetti Dinners and such to "Send the Troop to Camp" , "Buy the Scout Ship the Boat", "Buy the Explorer Post a Trailer"

and the Scouts worked at it, grew in esprit de Troop and made friends with the community along the way.

 

How bout half to the Unit, a quarter to the Council and a Quarter to National?