seed money for new units

[Lisabob]

Our district has been talking with a couple of groups about starting up one or more crews (outdoor, high adventure focus). Some of the people involved with one of the potential crews are of the opinion that the boys should either be able to take money from their boy scout accounts (expectation there is that most boys will be from a specific troop that has scout accounts already established) or that the as-yet-unformed potential crew should do some fundraising prior to being chartered, so as to have money to start with. If the latter option occurs, since they wouldn't yet be part of the BSA (not chartered yet!) there is some question as to whether BSA unit-money-raising rules would apply. I'm curious to know what people here think about that scenario.

 

Another group is talking about forming a crew to focus on backpacking. As we all know, equipment can be expensive, and this group proposes that each boy needs to have his own equipment (no loaners from a centrally owned crew equipment shed, and no need to store all the gear in somebody's barn/basement/where ever!). Consequently they're looking at some significant start up costs too, which leave me wondering how new members who might not own any such equipment would get up to speed, and whether or not money raised by this potential crew could be used by member to buy personally-owned equipment.

 

I know we have some folks on this board who have been involved with starting up crews and ships. I'd appreciate your thoughts -and of course everyone else's too- on an appropriate level and method of funding for crews like these to get them started.

 

 

[scoutldr]

Unless the new crew is chartered by the same CO, I don't think the other units can be compelled to hand over the scout account money. What about the scouts who don't have scout accounts? Will they have to pony up an equal amount out of pocket? In any event, it's a decision for the "losing" unit committee as to whether they will contribute or not. I see two options...either the prospective CO puts in the "seed money" (from it's own fund raising outside of BSA rules), or they charter with nothing and then commence fund raising. But requiring youth to post "upfront" money seems wrong to me.

 

To answer your question, if there is no charter yet, they cannot file the "Unit money earning" application.

[Lisabob]

To answer your question, if there is no charter yet, they cannot file the "Unit money earning" application.

 

Right, and I suspect this is both part of the appeal of doing pre-charter fundraising and part of the concern I'm voicing. Does that mean that prior to being chartered, the group could raise funds by doing things that they would not be allowed to do after being chartered? How about a raffle or poker night? How would people feel about this? I guess it is a gray area, and I wonder how much it could ruffle feathers, or whether maybe it is not a big deal.

 

 

[rkfrance]

Excuse me? Poker nights? Raffle? Chartered or not, is this the way you want Scouts and leaders to act? The adults and boys/girls you're likely going to start with will probably be dual registered. "We did it for the Crew, why can't we do it for the Troop?"

 

I've helped start 3 new units, 2 in Jan/Feb time frame, well after our popcorn sales for council are done. We didn't get anything from anyone to get things going. The first unit, a Pack, was started 4 years ago with NO $$$ and a handful of boys and leaders. We still have our issues, but have several hundred $$$ in the account and about 40 boys with a solid caring group of leaders.

 

District and council professionals are constantly under pressure to start new units, but they don't have much to do with things once the unit gets going on paper. It's up to the volunteers, particularly the commissioner staff and the district committee, to provide support to the unit and it's leaders.

 

Start talking to the District Chairman and District Commissioner for ideas and plans now.

 

Whether you are wearing the uniform or not, leader or youth, you should be trying to live up to the Scout Oath and Law. Those things don't go out the window or under the rug when it becomes inconvenient.

 

 

[Gold Winger]

I think that chartering only costs $10 so get the charter first. That way you can say, "We're a new unit and we need . . ." instead of "we want to start a crew and we'll need. . ."

 

Also, if you do fundraising before chartering the crew, what happens to those funds if something goes awry and the charter never happens?

 

As for the Scout accounts. That depends on the rules of the unit that is holding the money. My son's troop allows a boy to take the money with him to a new troop. Other units say, "nope, the money has to stay here."

 

If a person doesn't have any gear, they can get up to speed by performing the vanishing ritual of getting a job and buying it. Alp Mountaineering offers healthy discounts on gear through www.ScoutDirect.com. I paid about $60 for a pack that retails for about $150. PM me for more details.

 

Watch for sales. Ask other units if they have any equpiment that they don't want.

 

My son's troop was given a truck load of gear by a local commercial youth camp. It had depreciated so they wanted to get new stuff. Most was very servicable. Tents, canoes, kayaks. We spread the wealth and gave equipment that we wouldn't use to other units in the area.

 

Another idea. In my are a number hiking clubs. You probably can get the names from a local outfitter. Contact the clubs, explain your plight. I'd be willing to be that many members have old but servicable gear in their basements that they might donate.

 

Also talk to the outfitters in your area, they might have rental equipment that they are willing to sell for a low price.

 

Unless you really know what you're looking for, avoid Dick's, Gander Mountain and the like. Go to the little stores that are run by someone who loves hiking and camping. They usually know what they are talking about and often offer discounts to Scouts.

 

I bought some gear at a local outfitter and the price came up "wrong." I pointed this out to the salesman and he said, "you said that you were involved in Scouting so you get 10% off."

 

Those are my thoughts for the day, I'm sure that I'll have more later.

 

[scoutldr]

A prospective CO can raise funds for their "youth programs" any way they want, within the law. As long as they don't say they are raising funds for Scouting, I see nothing wrong with it. If they then decide to contribute to a new unit, I doubt anyone will demand to see records of how the money was obtained. If I go to Atlantic City and win $1000 and then donate it to FOS, will the Council turn down my check? HA!

 

 

[Gold Winger]

" If I go to Atlantic City and win $1000 and then donate it to FOS, will the Council turn down my check? HA!"

 

They should because it is the devil's money!

 

A friend won a big chunk of money and wanted to give 10% to his church. They refused. Claimed it was "the devil's money." He said if its the devil's money, take it and do God's work. They still refused. He kept the money and found a new church.

[Eamonn]

Hi Lisabob,

I kinda, sorta see where rkfrance is coming from. I would hope that we wouldn't set a bad example. However as the unit isn't a unit -Yet??

It seems to me that BSA guidelines would be optional.

The money to start a new unit?

When we started the Ship, I met with the local BPOE (Elk's). One of the first questions they asked was "How much is this going to cost us?" I wasn't sure, but did agree to put some numbers on paper for them which they (The few people I met with.)Agreed to present to their full committee.

Sadly my numbers were way off!! But that's for another thread.

The Elk's did give us about $500.00 to get started.

Going back to the point made by rkfrance. How the Elk's came by this money? Had nothing to do with the Ship and any other money they wanted to donate or might want to donate has nothing to do with the BSA.

I'm aware that most of the Elk's income comes from: Bingo, Hall rentals and the sales of alcohol in the bar. To be very honest I didn't care and was not going to look a gift horse in the mouth.

We did once the Ship's Charter was in place start having fund raising events, which because we were a BSA unit did follow the BSA guidelines.

Some of our members who had been Boy Scouts did transfer their personal Scout Accounts to the Ship, this money was used for "Personal items", things like uniforms and paying for the cost of activities, some Scouts left their account with the Troop but took money out to pay for this kind of stuff. This money never became part of the Ship's Money which of course is the Elk's.

Nearly all the Troops in our area do allow Scouts personal money in their personal account to be used in this way.

So far no local Troop has offered to make a donation to the Ship. Of course we (The Ship) could only accept it if the CO of the unit making the donation was aware of the donation and was happy with the donation.

I did try at one time, when I sat on the Council Executive Board to get the Board to provide money as "Seed Money" for Scoutreach Units. My idea was that the Board put up enough cash to cover the cost of books, adult leader training and uniforms for the leaders. Sadly about the time I came up with this the Council was hurting for money and the idea was lost in the haze.

A lot of the money needed to start the Ship did end up coming from my pocket, either in the form as a donation or as a loan. All the money that was loaned was discussed by both the Ship's Committee and the Quarterdeck, before it was given and before it was spent. This was carefully documented.

Most times it was only loaned for a very short time, to cover some unexpected expense (Some one wanted to donate a boat and we needed to buy tires for the trailer to get the boat home.)The money was repaid as soon as we had held the next fundraising event.

Districts and Councils should help the adults involved in starting new units come up with some sort of a budget plan that can be presented to the new CO.

But until such a time as the new unit has a charter, I think the less they know the better. Not that it really makes any difference as the unit is not part of the BSA.

Eamonn.

 

 

[Gold Winger]

My son's CO used to run a 50.50 raffle at their meeting and donate the proceeds to the troop. Some folks made a fuss so the idea was run through council who declared it legal since the CO was doing it on its own and not as a function of the troop. We'd get about $200 a month from this activity.

 

Unfortunately, the 50.50 has stopped because the CO wanted to have a couple Scouts come to the meetings in uniform and sell the tickets. We said that would be inappropiate so they killed the program. However, they still give us a couple grand a year so we can't complain. Too much.

[Gold Winger]

Another thought. If someone donates equipment for the unit to use and you give it to the youth for their use, unless the donor says otherwise, get it back when the youth leaves the crew.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm.... I don't want to sidetrack da thread with gambling. But at least be aware that unless you're startin' a crew on an Indian Reservation, holding a raffle or other gambling event gets yeh in trouble with the real police, not just da Uniform Police . Only a NFP entity can hold a gambling event, and then even that's limited by state.

 

So yer back to what scoutldr says. If you have a CO identified, they can do whatever they can legally do to raise money, eh? And then direct it toward whatever program of theirs that they want. Doesn't matter whether the crew is chartered yet or not.

 

I'd be more inclined to charter, borrow some gear from a friendly troop or crew in the area for an outing or three, and then hold a fundraiser. Yeh can also apply to your council (or CO, or other community fund) for a small grant to help with unit startup costs.

 

As far as backpacks go, those are tough to run as rentals/loaners. Too many size and fit issues. Requires yeh to keep too big an inventory. Not a great economic choice. Not a great practical choice either because it takes time for each person to "get used to" his or her pack and how to pack it.

 

Might be better to work out a purchasing arrangement with a local outdoor shop or with a supplier/distributor. Any member who comes in can purchase with that discount. Some outfitter stores also have demos/rentals which can be used by someone not ready to purchase.

 

My opinion is that it ain't kosher to use fund-raised monies to buy personal gear. A lot like saying "I'm raising money for Katrina victims" and then using it on your own house (fraud). Either that or it's compensation for labor (if you work the fundraiser, you get $X per hour in gear), which must be reported as income. But if a program raises money for the program (not scout accounts), and then the program officers say "Joe's parents are out of work and he has severe financial need, so we're going to buy him a backpack to be able to participate," well, that's closer, eh? If you're goin' this way, be sure to talk to da CO and their legal counsel or a competent NFP/tax attorney in your state. Depends a bit on da CO's status whether they can give direct grants to needy individuals in this way.

 

Perhaps a good option is to make a long-term loan purchase. Buy a backpack that fits Joe (but is owned by the crew). Even let Joe pick it out. Let Joe use it for as long as he is in the program. When Joe leaves the program, he either returns the pack so that it can be used by someone else, or he buys the pack from the crew at an appropriate price (and they use the money to buy a new pack for the next kid who needs one). Dat's completely kosher, and helps keep the crew goin'!

 

Beavah

 

[rkfrance]

Lisabob's comment was "Does that mean that prior to being chartered, the group could raise funds by doing things that they would not be allowed to do after being chartered? How about a raffle or poker night?" She is not referring to the CO, rather to the leaders and parents of the prospective Venturers.

 

If the CO does that sort of thing (within the appropriate limits of the law), it's their perogative. I fully understand how the American Legion, Elks, etc operate. If they support their units in such manners, I see the money donated going to a worthy cause. I know our district and council solicits these organizations for FOS.

 

I'd love to have an organization of any type donate money or equipment to us. We as units cannot solicit without providing a service or item comparable for the amount given. If they give without solicitation, it's their option. If the CO gives more than required (safe meeting place, leaders), GREAT!

 

My concern is a group of leaders and parents feeling it's alright to choose to take the option Lisabob referenced because they're not TECHNICALLY a unit yet.

 

[purcelce]

Get the unit chartered.

Recruit good adult leaders

Recruit youth.

Have the youth earn their own money. A few car washes/bake sales can get you a few hundred bucks. If need a few bucks, then ask the CO for help.

 

The money in the troop accounts belong to that troop.

 

Cary P

Crew 805 Advisor

 

[Gold Winger]

" Only a NFP entity can hold a gambling event, and then even that's limited by state."

 

A club that I used to belong to had a 50.50 at every monthly meeting and no-one worried about any legalities. Our membership included a fair number of lawyers, a couple police captains and a state judge so you'd think that they'd know if we were doing something illegal. 50.50s like that are private events and may be covered by the same rules as playing poker in your living room.

 

Considering the number of raffle tickets that I've bought over the years, getting permission to run a raffle must be pretty easybut BSA frowns upon rafffles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

I appreciate the feedback on this. To be clear, my position in the matter is not as a member, potential member, or parent of (potential) member, but rather, as somebody on the district membership committee, where the topic was broached. My initial reaction was that they should try to follow BSA rules even prior to chartering, and that they probably ought to wait to raise money until they officially exist, anyway. It just looks fishy to raise funds for a yet-to-be created unit, and what happens if, for some reason, after raising a bunch of cash the unit doesn't come to pass? But those are my personal views and I wanted to see what others might think on the matter. And I can appreciate other people's perspectives here too.

 

I really like Beavah's long-term-lone suggestion, which makes more sense to me than many of the alternatives. I do think that the potential leadership of the one crew that doesn't want to own any gear at all, is unrealistic. And I also think it is a reaction to years of Boy Scouting where the troop these adults were part of did almost exclusively car camping, complete with big heavy trailer and all the gear that could be stuffed in it. But to say that the unit will own nothing and that the youth members will have to provide everything is, in my view, a major hurdle to recruiting new members. So I'll have to float Beavah's proposal to these guys and see if it sticks.