Is this an appropriate fundraiser?

[Beavah]

Yah, so what do we all think of BSA summer camp, where boys with limited experience are hired as counselors and paid to teach skills to younger boys?

 

And what do we feel about DE's, who are paid to provide services to adult leaders (and to kids in direct service units)?

 

How about paying $ for training (or $$ for Woodbadge)?

 

Is it nice to get or give something for free? Sure. It's downright neighborly, eh?

 

But is it required?

 

B

 

[scoutldr]

"Yah, so what do we all think of BSA summer camp, where boys with limited experience are hired as counselors and paid to teach skills to younger boys?"

 

I think that we're talking apples and oranges. Summer camp counseling is a job, not a unit fundraiser. And the pay sucks, considering the hours they put in.

 

"And what do we feel about DE's, who are paid to provide services to adult leaders (and to kids in direct service units)? "

 

Ditto about the pay. It's the SE's who are making 4 times the salary of a DE that gives me heartburn. Ours doesn't do anything for the units, except publicly insult the volunteers and berate those who choose to go out of council for camp.

 

"How about paying $ for training (or $$ for Woodbadge)?"

 

Getting the "Trained" strip should be free, since "every scout deserves a trained leader" and we are told we're pond scum if we're not.

 

Most people I know can't afford WB (in terms of both time and bucks). Maybe we could do without the custom shirts, caps, notebooks, coffee mugs, yada, yada, yada, and make it more accessible to the masses.

[anarchist]

MattR,

Son, If you can't take the joke don't tip over the cow...

 

There is not a unit or district fund raiser out there that can not be turned on its head with your "scouts should give it away arguement"

These gals have found a need and are filling it...

 

...and what about the poor child that can't afford it???(someone said)- good gosh folks, there are scouts that can't afford the uniform...no one makes them buy one and no one makes them pay for lessons ..if their units can't teach skills...they need to find another way! Question does your unit give away free popcorn if some kids says he doesn't have the money? (rhetorical)

 

The question here should be why not meet a need? If I understand correctly, these girls are offering "extra curicular" sessions to other units... not charging their own folks for the training...so what is the difference from merit badge day? or summercamp? (and the term of "service" or employment simply won't wash...if one scout should give it away all scouts should give it away...using scouts to teach at summer camp is economics 101- cheap labor.nothing more)

 

Scoutldr,

ya missed the boat (more like the whole lake) with the scout/counselor/summercamp argument...In your "example", the scouts councilors would be the equivalent girl scouts in MattR's example(the labor)and the council would be equivalent to the girl scout unit (symantically speaking that is). The boy scouts and girls are not the ones "gaining" the most benefit from the "labor" clearly the units are (that is to say Council and troop make the "profit"). That said, I would like to point out that you seem to think that the camp counselors who pocket money are "more noble" than the girls who give their services to their unit...which ones are really the more "scout like"?...logically and ethically speaking "1" must equal "1" and the girls actually seem to score higher on the service check list than the counselors do, unless you do have a better argument.

 

cheerful service? I am sure they (girls) do their fair share of service...but perhaps your argument is that we should all just go out and have our units buy popcorn and give it away free as a cheerful service, and then wash cars for free and serve free pancake or free pasta or deliver free mulch...service with a smile!

 

...but I will bet you ARE (seriously) worth every bit of $60.00 per hour (only one hour per week remember)...but if your boys are giving the popcorn away as a part of their "volunteerism"...you'll have to accept IOUs

;>)

anarchist

 

 

[scoutldr]

Actually I'm being realistic. There probably was a day when summer camp staff worked for free (30's, 40's maybe? I'm not that old.), because they loved scouting, loved the chance to be in the "country" during the summer, and they had nothing else to do. They didn't need to generate $300 a week to support their cars and electronic toys. Those that had to get actual jobs, did so in order to help feed their families (my Dad was one of those). Unfortunately, those days don't exist any more, and if we didn't pay camp staffers a salary (meager as it is), there would not be a summer camp. But if it's gotten to the point that a scout can't donate a few hours to teach younger scouts how to tie knots, without expecting remuneration, that's sad indeed and our program is doomed.

[Lisabob]

I've thought about this one for a few days. Here's where I am on whether it is appropriate - No.

 

Anarchist and others make a good point that other scouting-related activities essentially include a fee-for-service model. That's true of summer camp, of MB days/universities, of camporees, scout-o-ramas, etc. For the most part, I do not have a problem with these activities costing money.

 

Yet the idea of some older scouts with (from the sounds of it) actually very little expertise "teaching" younger scouts as if they were well qualified to do so, and then charging for it, still rubs me the wrong way. I think there are three things about this that bug me.

 

1) The older scouts in question do not sound as if they were very well qualified to teach these skills, but usually that is the expectation that goes along with payment for training. If all it takes to become the resident "expert" in teaching backpacking or canoeing (or whatever) is a couple of hours of instruction yourself, then what we have here is a very shallow level of knowledge and that may even be dangerous - especially if the trainees do not realize that the trainer barely knows what they're doing.

 

This is (I hope) different from summer camp or MB universities or even adult leader training, in that the staff at those activities is usually chosen with an eye toward competence and experience. Now, that doesn't always happen and I've seen MB classes at camp and at MB universities that were just awful, where the presenter barely knew (or didn't know at all) what s/he was doing. And we've probably all sat through lousy adult leader trainings - or at least, I have. And you know what? People complain. "We paid for competent instruction - not that garbage," they said. And I happen to agree with them. Charging for training sets a higher expectation level, as well it should.

 

2) Some of the skills under discussion here are basic scout skills (knots for example) and not highly specialized or technical knowledge. If people start charging (someone suggested a buck a knot! I like that!) for every time they demonstrated or "taught" these basic skills, half our scouts would never learn them. And where do we stop? Charge new scouts to show them how to put their tents up? Charge them to teach them how to use the camp stove? What a racket. Why would new scouts join if they/their parents have to shell out all this dough to get basic instruction? It would seem like a never-ending scam, at least through 1st Class rank (in BSA terms). This might sound outrageous, but then it is also a logical conclusion. If we charge to teach basic skills in some cases, why not in all cases?

 

3) There is, again I hope, a different relationship between trainer and trainee in long-term activities like summer camp, than in short term activities like spending half an hour working on knots or whatever. While it is not reasonable to expect camp staff to give up their whole summer free of charge, it is less of a burden on individuals to give up a half hour or hour of their time free of charge. And when they're done, they can go home - unlike most summer camps, which require staff to be there 24/7 (or anyway, 24/6).

 

With regard to canoe trips and hiking, things might be different if we're asking someone to spend the entire weekend with the troop. Then it is reasonable, at least, to offer to pay their costs (travel, food, equipment rental, etc.). That recognizes that you are asking for a larger commitment of time and effort from them.

 

Now, you might say, MB universities are a short term relationship and yet we pay for those. Same with adult leader training. True. In the case of MB U's, most in our area are fund raisers for various groups. For example, there's a national service fraternity that does MB U's as part of their annual fundraiser. So the fee you pay in those cases is not going to scouting, or to the presenters at the MB U (believe me, I've done it and they never paid me!) - it is going to that organization. As for training, actually I agree that basic leader training ought to be free, or as close to free as we can get (perhaps a materials fee for any required material). In fact, in our council some districts DO offer it for free, while others don't. Those that don't make two arguments in favor of charging. One is that they also provide leader handbooks as part of the cost. The other is that they often have to pay for space in which to conduct the training. So, I'm not sure MB U's and leader training are equivalent points of comparison for these reasons.

 

With that said, I guess my advice to Matt is that if he is uncomfortable with this relationship, he should explain why to his daughter. Chances are good that she will understand his point of view (teen and pre-teen kids are surprisingly fair minded most of the time!) and they may be able to come to an agreement on how she will, or will not, participate in these activities.

[ScoutNut]

Matt - Matt, all we have to go on is your limited description. I am uncomfortable with girls(or boys) teaching other girls(or boys) canoeing skills when they have only 2 hours instruction time under their belt & no canoeing experience. Maybe basic paddling techniques so newbies can avoid going in circles & tipping over, but that is about it. They are NOT experts in any sense.

 

What I think would work as a Girl Scout money earning event is an outdoor activity day. Using a council camp with all of the proper facilities would be a plus. Then the "skills" taught would all be part of a day long of outdoor fun & learning.

 

I do not know how your daughter's Troop had their event set up, but GSUSA money earning activities are NOT usually ongoing affairs. They are one time only events that are done to earn money for a particular purpose. There is a set of rules (both national & local) that the Troop has to follow, along with a Money-Earning Application that has to be approved by their Service Unit and Council. After the money earning activity is over, most councils require the Troop to submit financial paperwork on the event which includes expenses incurred, number of attendees, amount charged, Troop profit, etc (remember the COUNCIL owns the Troop). I would say that, IF your daughter's Troop filed a Money-Earning Application, AND had it approved by their council, they should be OK.

 

If you are concerned, I would recommend you pick up a copy of Safety Wise from your local council & read up on the rules governing Troop money earning activities. If you are still concerned, then you should talk to the person at your council who is in charge of approving the Money-Earning Applications. They should be able to answer all of your questions about the event.