Is this an appropriate fundraiser?

[MattR]

I know of a scout group, not mine, that has made a fundraiser out of teaching scout skills. So, older scouts charge money to teach scouts in other troops skills like going on hikes or canoeing. This seems all wrong to me as it goes against the grain of scouting, of helping out and volunteering. I've created a bunch of bad blood by mentioning this, I don't like that, and I'm trying to figure out what to do. Does anyone else do this type of fund raiser? Am I going too far by saying this is not appropriate?

 

Thanks,

 

Matt

[Spiney Norman]

In a word, NO.

This just seems wrong. After all a scout is... Helpfull. Isn't part of being a scout helping other scouts learn these skills whether or not they are feom the same unit. I know quite a few Scouters who, had they charged for this service, could have retired a long long time ago.

 

I'm sure this unit could find another way of fundraising. Not to mention that I'm sure their council wouldn't approve this as a unit findraiser.

 

Ken

[epalmer84]

I mulled this over a bit, but have the same opinion as Ken- this is just not right. I would not countenance this as a "fund raiser" for my unit, nor would I pay for such a service. I have to think this reflects badly for all of the units involved. I wonder who approved that Unit Money-Earning Permit Application? Especially after reading the guideline that states "is it consistent with the ideals and purposes of the Boy Scouts of America?"

 

http://www.scouting.org/forms/34427.pdf

 

Ed

 

 

[scoutldr]

Withdrawn...Ed beat me to it...(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Beavah]

Yah, well... hmmm. One thing about forums, every now and then there's somethin' new!

 

I do know a few troops that rent gear to other units. They charge for rental, and the money goes to equipment repair and replacement, with some small fraction also going into the troop's general fund. That seems OK to me; the troop is providing a real service, typically cheaper than what renting from a commercial outfitter would cost.

 

So now, what if a troop that was rentin' their canoes also made a couple of canoe instructors available to a unit that needed help? That's a fairly big commitment, to take a full day or a weekend out to do instruction. Might even be necessary for the renting troop to fulfill Safety Afloat expectations.

 

On the one hand, I agree that it just feels like on an individual basis, being Helpful means being helpful for free, whether it's loaning gear or people. On the other hand, if someone needed help every other weekend, with wear and tear on gear and people's time, that seems a bit much to ask for. Perhaps some compensation ain't so bad, eh? Especially if the compensation is goin' to support the kids' program.

 

We district and council folks should really offer trainin' for free, eh? Bein' helpful and all. But instead we do charge for expenses, and often a bit extra. Sometimes we do that just so people have some skin in the game, so they actually show up. How is that different than a troop doin' it?

 

Tough question, but I wouldn't be too quick to judge.

 

Beavah

 

[ScoutNut]

"has made a fundraiser out of teaching scout skills. So, older scouts charge money to teach scouts in other troops skills like going on hikes or canoeing."

 

This is not a merit badge counselor, certified canoe instructor, or council trainer, teaching these things. It sounds like these are "older" boys (how old? - what is their expertise?) charging for teaching "younger" boys (how young?) things that should be being taught by their own Troop as part of their Troop program.

 

I think we need more info here.

[Settledin]

Does this count for the Entrepreneur MB with the Captive Audience requirement.

 

Sometimes thinking outside of the box crosses the line.

[Oak Tree]

Seems to me that this is what we do at summer camp. We pay older Boy Scouts to teach younger Boy Scouts skills. I'm not sure I see the problem. I guess it would depend on the specifics of the situation, but it's not like it's a required expense, is it? If you don't want to hire them, don't hire them. We don't normally have boys from other troops coming around and teaching skills anyway, so I'm not sure why I'd consider hiring them to do so.

 

Oak Tree

[MattR]

>I think we need more info here.

 

I was trying not to give more information because I wanted to keep things focused. But, I can see your point. So here goes. First of all, these are girl scouts and not boy scouts. I don't think that changes anything, having both a son and a daughter. The older scouts vary in age from 12 to about 16. So, definitely not a counselor, barely able to do the skills themselves. The younger scouts are younger than the older scouts. The skills being taught range from the equivalent of 1st class skills to some merit badge type stuff.

 

The council knows about it and seems to be OK with it.

 

The reason that troops can't teach their own is because they have nobody with the skills to do it. I can understand charging to cover expenses, but not to cover time. In fact, I think this would be a great service project. They would probably get a lot more scouts to show up and stick with scouting if this were a service project.

 

Oak Tree mentioned that scouts charge at summer camp. That seems like a different situation. That's a full time, long term job. If you're going to get a 16 or 17 year old to spend a month at summer camp, you have to pay them, same for the adults. You don't have to pay them at a camporee, or a meeting, or any short duration event, as with the adults.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

So you are talking about Cadettes & Seniors teaching Juniors & Brownies? How much are they are charging them? The younger girls are actually PAYING them? What skills are they teaching? You mentioned hiking, what kinds of things are they teaching for hiking? You also mentioned canoeing. This I have a real problem with. GSUSA has a LOT of rules in place about canoeing & who is qualified to run a canoe trip.

 

If this is an ongoing thing, I am suprised the council goes along with it unless they really do not know about it. In just about every council I have heard tell of, Troops are allowed only 1 or 2 money earning projects & that is only allowed if the Troop participates in the council money earning programs first. Exceptions for extra money earning projects might be allowed if there is a special need, like for Silver/Gold Award expenses.

 

I hope the girls are not claiming their money earning time as leadership hours. That I would have a REAL BIG problem with.

 

BTW - GSUSA summer camps are VERY different from BSA summer camps. There is very little actual skills instruction & if they do have youth staff (not usual) they are not paid.

 

[evmori]

Isn't this what they are to be learning in their units?

 

Short answer - NO!

 

Long answer - NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[anarchist]

 

Gosh, i Like being on the outside...

MattR (and most posters on this thread) you are simply wrong and forgive me for saying it way out of line...the powers that be in you council seem to have no problem with the situation so whats your problem? And for that matter what business is it of yours what another unit is doing as long as council has no beef with it? Just where in any scouting literature GS or BSA have they crossed any lines? Did someone die and make you girl scouting ethics czar or did youi just inherit to much of the stick you nosey where it don't belong gene? (was that over the top?)

 

If you see something wrong with Scouts using their skills and expertise to teach others (scouts included) the skills and expertise they (others)would like to have and making money for their units in the process...then I guess you need to fire all of your camp directors and close down summercamp and almost all other district and council events cause you are being SOOOO hypocritical.

 

And the term of employment Weekend or summer which has been brought up is totally irrelevant...If they provide a service someone wants or needs and is/are willing to pay for it...whether it is council sponsored or troop sponsored it is still the same...ethically speaking. Sometimes (IMHO)we get a little too condescending in these forums...and this seems like one of those times. Frankly, it sounds great to me...

 

The comment on scouts being helpful is a bull hocky...Scouts are helpful in hundreds of ways...and even helpful while they do fund raising -councils like to see value for effort or product...Certainly education and skill transfer is helpful...valuable, benefical and maybe even profitable...

 

I also think each one of you (at least the "gainfully employed") are helpful to your employers but get paid for the effort...Sounds to me like these young ladies have discovered a need and a way to help both their units and scouts from other units....

 

Just because some folks here would not pay for the "service of skills transfer", I can think of many situations (young troops with newbie leaders, outdoors skill challenged leaders, even outdoor challenged parents who have kids needing "tutors"...Lighten up for petes sake. Yall sound like a bunch of pinko socialist, latte drinking, reformed 12 steppers...

 

I think we ought to give the girls a BSA Entrepreneur merit badge anyway...and give switches and coal to the "boo bears"...

 

'think I'll lay off the coffee for the rest of the day ...my "throttle the busy-bodies" gene has me all twitchie...

Anarchist

[Spiney Norman]

Two words...........

 

 

 

Cheerful Service!

[scoutldr]

I thought "volunteerism" was one of our "timeless values"...apparently I was wrong.

 

So, lest I be thought of as a "pinko socialist", I'll notify my COR that my services as a Troop CC are now at the rate of $60 an hour. (If figure that's about right for 35 years' experience, and still less than our SE makes!). The boys had better get busy...that's a lot of popcorn!!!

 

(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[MattR]

"... Did someone die and make you girl scouting ethics czar or did youi just inherit to much of the stick you nosey where it don't belong gene? (was that over the top?) ... Yall sound like a bunch of pinko socialist, latte drinking, reformed 12 steppers..."

 

Nothing's over the top, anarchist, but it certainly frames your argument in a new light. I'd rather talk about ideas and not personalities.

 

I'm interested in this because my daughter is in this group. I also don't want to just pull her from this group because there are other things that this group does well.

 

The main argument that's been brought up for this fund raiser seems to be that it's a market economy so these kids may as well take advantage of it. That's OK for those that can afford it. But what about those that can't? What about the kid that says I can't afford $16 for someone to take me on a hike, even though I think it would be fun. Would this group get more kids interested in scouting if they ran this as a service project?

 

I know someone that gives probably $100,000 a year to scouting. When he was a kid he was dirt poor and scouting meant everything to him. He was accepted and he was encouraged. He is a rags to riches story. Now he spends a lot of time with scouting at the national level. I'm wondering what would have happened to him if his SPL had said pay me a dollar and I'll teach you how to tie a bowline. How many kids get something out of scouting because it's relatively cheap?

 

I'm also wondering what this teaches the girls making the money. I've gone canoeing plenty of places but I won't teach canoeing because I don't feel like I'm qualified. If I don't feel qualified leading a canoe trip I don't feel like I should be teaching it. My daughter, after two hours of instruction, feels like she can teach canoeing mainly because some older girl, backed by an adult, has told her she's qualified. This sounds like really short training and the only explanation that I can think of is that it involves money. Now my daughter can make money and she likes that. To me, this sounds like an ethical problem. I also think there's a problem in the values she's taught. All sorts of people volunteered to teach her something and now she can make a profit off of that. I'd say that's self centered and not exactly in the spirit of scouting. Scouting could last without paid counselors but it wouldn't last without volunteers.

 

To me, the main point about scouting is the values taught; compassion, honor, and responsibility. The skills taught, although important, are secondary to this. This fund raiser seems to turn this upside down. I guess that's the line that was crossed.