cajuncody Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 Hi all, me again! My pack has decided to stop selling candy bars and go with a scratch off card this year but IMO it violates policy. In another post here abouts someone stated that you can not ask for donations. This new scratch off card is just that. From my understanding the boys ask someone to donate the amount uncovered by the scratch off dot and then give them a coupon sheet. Are we skirting policy by giving the coupon sheet? To truly skirt the issue shouldn't the boys be "selling" the coupon sheets for the amount uncovered by the dot? And finally, are any of you familiar with the scratch off cards? Cajun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 I suggest the unit follow the BSA fund raising requirement to complete a Unit Money earning application and submit it to the council office for approval. My guess is they will not allow the unit to wear the BSA uniform or make any reference to scouting or being scouts as they promote sell and deliver the "product". If they want to continue with the project while obeying these restrictions they can but as a consumer I would not consider buying one. (This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamonn Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 I agree with everything that Bob has posted. I have never seen this Scratch and Win ticket with coupons. I have seen them where you win different amounts of money. Both seem like a game of chance to me. Eamonn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cajuncody Posted September 18, 2004 Author Share Posted September 18, 2004 I may not have been clear. This is not a scratch and win. The scout will have a card with scratch off dots and will say "would you like to donate to our pack?" The "donor" will then scratch off a dot to see how much to donate from $.05 to $2.00 they get the coupons for donating. So right there we are asking for cash donations and then as a "thank you" giving coupons. These cards may be seen at : http://www.wowfundraising.com/scratchcards-fundraising.php Cajun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsteele Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 I hate to be the negative guy, but you give me no choice. Read the back of the Unit Money Earning Permit carefully. The scratch off cards violate the agreement. For those unfamiliar with the scratch off cards, I'll give you the low-down. One of the units I work with tried it and I asked too many questions. As a result, the council shut down the fund-raiser. I did a little research afterwards, and had to agree with council. This is the way the scratch cards work. BTW -- good, but unscoutlike, fundraiser. The cards are like instant lottery cards. Scratch with a coin or whatever and reveal something. There are (that I have seen) the no candy bar cards -- in which the scratcher scratches to find out how many candy bars he didn't buy at $1.00 a pop -- up to $5.00 and then writes the Scout a check for the amount of the candy bars he didn't buy. The other is a simple donation -- scratch off to find out how much you should donate to the troop. The cost is minimal. The price could be astronomical. I'm not even sure if these are legal. I put a kabosh on the idea early on and wasn't forced to check the legality of it. I would suggest, that regardless of what your unit decides, that you check to see if this method of fundraising will get serious attention from the law. Unc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamonn Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 I could get that new BMW after all. All I need is everyone to send me a message, I will tell you how much you didn't win and you owe me that amount!! You might be the lucky person that didn't win the $5,000. Of course everyone is a winner and can send me the cash. While this wouldn't be endorsed by the BSA, the Moving Eamonn would really like to offer everyone the opportunity to be a big winner. Please make checks out to ME. (Just Joking) Eamonn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamilyMan Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 To give another take on this . . . . A scratchcard is, or can be, simply seen as providing a variable price for a product. For example, when my boys are doing popcorn (probably never again) and get some donations in addition to the sale price of the popcorn, they don't turn it down. In fact, they will sometimes (very rarely) use part of the donations to help fill out a slightly short payment on a popcorn sale where someone really wants to help but is a dollar short. In the end, everyone is benefited and happy. The scratchcard program that we have used--http://www.fundraisingthatworks.org/FunMoney.html-- stongly recommends that a valuable product be provided: we used a BOGO local restaurant coupon worth up to $8.00. The card has scratches that reveal between $1 and $5. For each scratch, regarless of amount revealed, the purchaser gets a coupon. This was by far the best fundraising program we have ever done and everyone participating was happy. The consumer knew they were supporting a good cause and didn't resent overpaying for a product, the restaurant received free advertising to a highly targeted audience (they like to have the kind of people that support good causes) and the boys were elated at the income realized for their efforts. I will be happy to accept whatever the prevailing opinion is regarding the suitability of this approach for the scouts; however, it does seem to me that we are dealing with nuances that are subject to interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Scratch card - no! This is a form of gambling. Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 I agree with Ed. The rationalization that there is a variable price for some undelivered merchandise is a deception - a self-deception on the part of the fundraisers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR540Beaver Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Before it comes up, raffles are a no no too. It is a game of chance. We had a dad who could get us a side of beef for free and wanted to raffle it off. We told him we couldn't do it, even though we had no doubts it would make good money. The idea was advanced that maybe we could sell a candy bar with a raffle ticket attached. They would actually be receiving a product for a price with the added benefit of getting a side of beef. The talk died down and we never presented it to the Council to get their ruling on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 "...it does seem to me that we are dealing with nuances that are subject to interpretation. " Did your DE sign off on your Unit Money-Earning Application? What was his interpretation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cajuncody Posted September 22, 2004 Author Share Posted September 22, 2004 I spoke with my CM and he saw no problem with the card. He said we will be selling mini candy bars for the "price " uncovered and giving coupons as a thank you. He said his app was approved on this by the council. I don't know . . .still seems like a very fine line to walk. Cajun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamilyMan Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 I am really appreciating this discussion. It is helping me think, sort and, hopefully, clarify all this. However, no one has commented on this part of my previous post: "For example, when my boys are doing popcorn (probably never again) and get some donations in addition to the sale price of the popcorn, they don't turn it down. In fact, they will sometimes (very rarely) use part of the donations to help fill out a slightly short payment on a popcorn sale where someone really wants to help but is a dollar short. In the end, everyone is benefited and happy." Also, is it really a "game of chance" or "gambling" if the consumer gets something of value that is worth more than the amount of the contribution? Or, does an unequal contribution for an equal product constitute the problem? Thanks for the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 I sympathize with the persons making donations. After years of organizing the sale for the pack, I absolutely hate popcorn. So I just give them a direct donation. In my case I know the CO and I donate to them with the understanding that it goes to their pack and troop. This works well and I get the tax advantage as well. As for extra cash at a sale, I don't see anything wrong with accepting it if it is unsolicited. I wouldn't turn it down, rather, I would tell them it really isn't necessary and then thank them if they insist. The second part is more difficult and a little confusing. If the merchandise is actually greater value than the price, how can you possible make a profit? That part of your question is a little unclear. As for the scratch-off approach, the assumption is that there are enough highly-priced tickets to offset and actually exceed the losses incurred by the under-priced ones. The deception is that you are playing off the customer's ignorance (and greed) of how many under-priced ones have already been sold...that is, the customer is enticed into taking the deal by the possibility of getting something of value for little or no cost. To me this is even worse than a raffle because a customer's odds in a raffle are, at least, usually determined solely by the number of chances he purchases. With the scratch-off approach, it is possible that all the under-priced tickets could be sold first and the probability thereafter that a customer would pay too much is 100%. The unsuspecting and unknowing customer, nevertheless makes the purchase anyway if this model is to turn a profit. The probability also works the same if none of the under-priced ones are sold at all until the end. The assumption most of us make is that the tickets are 'randomized' or 'normally distributed'. Few if any of such games I have seen have come close to meeting that assumption in reality. Alternatively, and this probably occurs as well, the customer may have knowledge of this scheme and play along, fully knowing there is a chance they'll get stuck with the big one. In a more honest world, such customers would be termed, "large donors". They are free to make direct contributions (no direct solicitation, of course) the same way I do to our CO. H'mmm. So why don't they? Answer: Because they just bought a couple of tins of overpriced popcorn or took a couple of scratch-off chances. In my view, every box of cookies, every pancake supper, and every scratch-off equivalent has potential problems. I respond to the situation personally...with my personal check to the CO. Edited part: I do, ahem, still buy cookies from time to time.(This message has been edited by packsaddle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 I am sorry, but this old bird is in over his head, what is a scratch off card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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