Does any others not do popcorn sales at all?

[SR540Beaver]

Ed,

 

You strike me as a guy who probably doesn't care for welfare. I could be wrong. Why should a troop who is unwilling to support the council's financial needs and goals expect a free hand out from the council. If you help me build a shelter, you've earned the right to crawl under it with me when it rains. If you sit on a log and watch me build a shelter, it is up to me to decide to share it with you when it starts raining. It isn't politics. Consider the oath and law. Why would a troop who lives by the oath and law choose not to support the council and then expect something for nothing?

[Eamonn]

Political?

please explain.

Eamonn

[evmori]

"However I do know for a fact that Scouts who sell popcorn are seen in a more favorable light when Camperships are given."

 

Political! Sell or be put at the bottom of the list.

 

"Why should a troop who is unwilling to support the council's financial needs and goals expect a free hand out from the council."

 

What if that Troop is at every Beaver Day & every work day? That is also support and most of the time, more important than the monetary kind.

 

I don't like welfare!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver]

Ed,

 

If two troops are going to the same camp on the same weekend and request the same campsite, I'd give it to the one that participates in the clean ups over the one who does not. They can't both have it.

 

No one said that they would NOT get any cash when requesting a campership. But if funds are tight and it comes down to a request from a troop that supports the financial needs of the council over a troop that doesn't, I'm sure some decision making comes into play.

 

Life is a series of choices. The choices you make often affect the next set of choices you are presented with. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[evmori]

"No one said that they would NOT get any cash when requesting a campership. But if funds are tight and it comes down to a request from a troop that supports the financial needs of the council over a troop that doesn't, I'm sure some decision making comes into play."

 

And the campership should go to the Scout that needs it the most! Who sold popcorn should have nothing to do with it! It should be based on the need of the Scout!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[dsteele]

I don't know much about awarding camperships, and haven't given it much thought.

 

However, something about the money vs. working at beaver day or camp work day, whatever you call it triggered a mental synapse.

 

I'm all for donated labor at camp -- done a fair amount of it myself. However, when we as volunteers paint the lodge, fix the siding, build picnic tables, what have you . . . where did the money for the materials come from?

 

Sometimes it's donated by a company. Sometimes it's a troop pet project. Most of the time the money came from the council's budget -- which is raised by such things as popcorn sales, FOS, camp fees, and United Way.

 

If there is no paint, no lumber, no bricks or mortar, all the free labor in the world won't keep your camp running.

 

Just a thought or two.

 

Unc.

[SR540Beaver]

Ed,

 

I agree in principle, but how does the council office know that Bobby needs it worse than Tommy? What has Bobby's troop done to try to help him financially from within the troop. Evidently they have not tried raising funds.....at least not to help out the council that they are going to for help. Charity starts at home. Someone has to make the hard decision and those that are charitable will probably receive more charity when it is requested.

 

You know as well as I do that there are scouters who think that their council already has too much money and/or don't spend it the way it should be spent. These are the guys who don't see any value in supporting the council financially, but come with their hat in their hand for a free handout. They want to keep everything at the unit level until it benefits them to go outside the unit. You can't have it both ways.

[evmori]

SR540Beaver,

 

The council knows all the information you questioned because it is on the campership form. And if they have any questions, they can contact the Scout or his parents or someone from his unit.

 

If a unit chooses to have a fundraiser other than popcorn, that is their option. We do sell popcorn but hold another fundraiser to help out. Popcorn isn't a great moneymaker for the unit. There are hundreds of other fundraisers that can generate more profit for a unit. And I know of nothing that states fundraising MUST help out the council. Is it a nice thing to do? Sure. So is donating materials, time and labor to Scouting projects for council.

 

Uncleguinea,

The money comes from a wide variety of sources. Corporate donations, private donations, FOS, popcorn, etc. The free labor comes mainly from one source - Scouts & Scouter's.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Eamonn]

I still fail to see how this fits into the meaning of the word political. A word that is used way too much, if you ask me.

Ed

While I have no plans to go just yet. I think when my time comes and St Peter gets the book out. He will see if I have been a good little Eamonn. He will see if I played the game down here by the rules laid down in that other good book.He will see the Sundays when I was just too lazy to go to Mass. He will see the times that when someone needed a hand and I was just too busy. My Mother always said that I would argue with Saint Peter. I don't think that I will. But if I did, I kinda think he would argue that his boss gave me all the opportunities to do things to get into heaven and I choose not to take them.

I can't see me telling Saint Pete that I think that this is political. I think it comes under the heading "The Lord helps those who help themselves."

Eamonn

[Fuzzy Bear]

Reasons for me to waiver on this popcorn issue:

 

1. The very people in this forum that claim that the program rests solely in the unit are supporting popcorn because they now claim they fully support the Council. (Note: This argument is so irrational that I am looking for this to be a psychological experiment.)

 

2. The very people in this forum that claim that the word political is overused because it is being used in conjunction with popcorn are also supporting forced sell of popcorn as being non-political. (Note: This is confusing or irrational or caused from excessive drink.)

 

3. The thought that if we don't sell popcorn, we don't support Council. (Note: If Council's existence rests on the Scouts selling popcorn, then we are in the worst kind of shape that I can imagine or there is something else going on, such as a Brother-in-Law in the mix somewhere?)

 

4. After reading about popcorn in the Canadian piece, there has been a decline in enrollment due in part to the forced sell of popcorn. (Note: How did this popcorn bunch get such a stranglehold on the BSA? Does this Company have a relative on the National Board?)

 

5. The accusation of people in this forum that if we don't support popcorn, we support welfare. (Note: Now, this is an argument that doesn't follow at all but is useful. It is like one of those political ads.)

 

6. The threat of and the act of putting the issues of popcorn and camperships together is not "political" but is really only being a good Thrifty Scout. (Note: This is one twisted argument but it sounds like someone making like they are trying to think.)

 

7. All of the work done by leaders for Council over the years is thought to be of no help if they do not support popcorn.

(Note: Over the years, I never once thought of my work for Council as being anything other than a Good Turn effort on my part but I now understand that the perspective from Council is that unless I have the boys sell popcorn, my Good Turns are seen as being in opposition to them.)

 

I think I am beginning to see the reason for the name of this venture being called "Trails End".

 

Boy, they almost got me,

 

FB

 

[evmori]

Fuzzy,

Excellent summary!

 

Eamonn,

One doesn't get into heaven by works alone, but that's a whole other can of worms!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Eamonn]

So where does the money come from?

Eamonn

[PNScouter]

I honestly do not believe that our council uses selling popcorn as a means test for giving out camperships. Also, I believe there is no place in the campership request form for an income statement. A scout is trustworthy.

 

I don't care if you sell popcorn or your unit gives many hours of service to thier council. My point is you should support your council in some way.

[SR540Beaver]

Let me say this for the record. We are all in this for the boys....well, at least the majority of us. That includes people at the district and council level. This is getting blown out of proportion. No one is suggesting that financial support of the council by a unit is a litmus test for getting a campership. But when funds are tight and there are more requests than funds, someone has to make the decision of who gets what. All things being even, it is quite possible that the person making the decision will remember what one unit contributes (whether it be money or sweat) over another unit that does not. On the other hand, they might just put the boys in alphabetical order and start at the top until the funds are gone. Heck, they might hang them on the wall and throw darts. They might read tea leaves. The bottom line is it is advantageous to everyone involved if the units do their best to support their parent organization to ensure that camperships are available to anyone who needs them. To not do so is neither loyal, friendly, kind or thrifty or to help other people at all times.

[Fuzzy Bear]

"The bottom line is it is advantageous to everyone involved if the units do their best to support their parent organization to ensure that camperships are available to anyone who needs them. To not do so is neither loyal, friendly, kind or thrifty or to help other people at all times. "

 

This last statement is inflammatory in several different languages and cultures but it still can be overlooked for the benefit of having a civil argument and to show that I can be kind and friendly even when I am verbally abused.

 

Are you saying that popcorn supports Camperships only?

Our unit began making repayable Camperships available sometime ago and we haven't requested a Campership from Council since. We believe and act on the principle that welfare doesn't work. We train Scouts how the economy works by letting them work and pay or repay.

 

Are you saying that FOS campaign no longer sustains the Council budget?

We have contributed to the FOS yearly as a unit. I give to it regularly and substantially in relation to my budget.

 

Are you saying that the United Way is unable to sustain the Council budget?

I have given to the UW but earmarked my donations to the Scouting program.

 

Are you saying that the Endowment program has not started to contribute to the Council budget?

We have encouraged several to obtain information and to engage in this program.

 

Are you saying that all of the sweat and personal money that I poured into our Council's Camps is considered of no value since our Scouts chose not to sell popcorn and therefore I am disloyal and unhelpful and untrustworthy, and unthrifty?

 

If there is anything left in your tank, please explain because your definition of a good Scout appears to be much different than mine.

 

I had been lead to believe there was a choice involved but I didn't realize that it meant either being a Scout or not being a Scout.

 

FB