OldGreyEagle Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 Egads, So that brand new troop trailer furnished by the CO payed for by funds generated by Bingo nights has to go back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 OGE, If it was my Troop yes. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASM1 Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 I think you all better re-read the posts here from Bob White because he is right on the money so to speak. As a charter organization who is affiliated with other charter organizations within many of our local chambers of commerce I can tell you that the fund rainsing activities of a charter organization conducted within the laws of the local authorities is not of any legal or suspect concerns of the BSA units they sponsor. plain and simple. And it is a fact! Some of the strongest units in our country are sponsored by the American legions and VFW's, who consistantly operate Bingo's and Raffles. I think ASM514 is on to a great idea and if his CO is willing, why should we offer up reasons his CO cannot get his units off the ground and running stong. I think this is common sense and I am surprised this thread went this long... ASM1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver-shark Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 God Bless the VFW and American Legion !!! They do A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT for our youth in the scouting programs AND atheletics programs. But, when they supply the resource of a meeting place for a unit, thus helping to conduct the scouting program, they have to follow our policies regarding the safety and adequacy of the meeting place. They might not have to follow the same guidelines for their sports programs but they do when providing this service to their scouting program. When they supply the resource of drivers for our events, thus helping to conduct the scouting program, they have to follow our policies regarding current and past licensing, insurance, and age requirements. They could have had a drivers license revoked previously and still be able to drive a sports team, but not when supplying this service to their Scouting Unit. When they supply the resource of a SM, CO REP, or Troop Committee, thus helping to conduct the scouting program, they have to follow our policies regarding the quality and background, criminal or other, of the adults that they supply. They could have people with various criminal backgrounds working with their sporting programs that would not be allowed into a SM, CO Rep, or Troop Committee position in their Scouting Unit. When they supply the resource of funding their unit, thus helping to conduct the scouting program, why aren't they bound by our policy of not doing it with a raffle? I'm still having trouble seeing how in the absence of a policy covering how the CO can or can't donate to or fund their scouting program when doing it soley for the financial benifit of the scouting program that they are conducting, why they aren't bound by the policies that tell us how we can conduct Unit Fundraising. If they want to have a Raffle to support their baseball program, I have no problem with that, but not SPECIFICALLY for the scouting program that they are conducting. Our standards are higher. It sounds like what you're saying is that they are only bound by our policies while supplying resources when it is convenient, not as they relate to ALL scouting program issues as they conduct the scouting program. A CO is to,"Conduct the scouting program according to it's own policies and guidelines, as well as those of the Boy Scouts of America." This isn't an issue of trademarks, etc... It's about when should the CO be following OUR policies. We may just have to agree that we disagree on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twocubdad Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Ed, if that's your personal moral choice, fine. But I certainly don't see that BSA policy draws that fine of a distinction. You wrote that "if the funds being donated to a Troop come from something that is illegal then the Troop should not accept these funds." Absolutely! If your CO is running a ponzi scheme to support the unit, it's time to look for a new CO. But in the example given, a raffle conducted by the church or VFW post is not illegal. In most states there exceptions in the gambling laws allowing games of pure chance (i.e., bingo and raffles) by charitable organizations. What's the difference between a VFW post using raffle proceeds to buy its chartered unit a new trailer and using the same money to pay the power bill for the building in which the unit meets? If the raffle proceeds went to the CO's general operating expenses, would you refuse to met there? If the BSA expects all CO's to adopt it's fund raising policy, how can VFW or American Legion posts -- or many churches for that matter -- charter units to begin with? As Bob White has pointed out a couple of times, BSA policy controls what the boys are doing while in uniform representing BSA and in the name of BSA, not the activities of the CO. This ties in with the wine tasting fund raiser thread. There is a difference between what is done by or in front of youth and the things adults are permitted outside the presence of the boys. I see nothing immoral about "donating" five buck to benefit a scout troop with the possible chance of winning a used computer. Neither do I see anything immoral about a group of consenting adults attending a wine and cheese party to benefit the Scouts. But I also agree it would be distasteful at best (illegal at worst) for Scouts to participate in these events. But again, that's just my judgment. Your results may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Twocubdad, The difference is when the VFW holds a raffle to help pay the light bill is not against any policy the VFW has (including all applicable laws). A raffle is however not allowed by the BSA as a fundraiser and as silver-shark stated, the CO needs to comply with the BSA when dealing with the unit. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 I know for a fact that some organizations (the local public school, for one) conduct raffles, the proceeds from which are then donated to the United Way campaign. I also know for a fact that more than a few UW dollars are extorted from unwilling employees who are threatened, coerced, and otherwise made to feel uncomfortable and "not a team player" if they refuse to donate. I once had a fellow employee who refused to donate based on religious grounds. THe boss then put money in himself under the employee's name, just so he could show "100% participation", and thus meet one of his performance goals as a manager. That being said, I find the "methods" of the UW to be socially unacceptable and morally repugnant, and I consider them to be "ill-gotten gains". I will, accordingly, send a letter to National recommending that BSA Councils refuse all future UW contributions. Everyone OK with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver-shark Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Twocubdad VFW Posts, American Legion Posts, Lions Clubs, Moose Clubs, Elks Clubs, churches etc... have several sources of income to run their OVERALL PROGRAM. These consist of tithes, dues, raffles/bingo/poker machines, bar and food sales, other fundraisers, donations, etc... These monies go to pay for salaries, utilities, rents, mortgages, supporting needy people, etc... BSA would have no say regarding how these OVERALL PROGRAM monies are earned, unless in an illegal way, these monies are all gray and fuzzy as they pertain to where they are spent, but would as they pertain to fundraisers specifically targeting how the scouting program is conducted, ie. I want to do a $10,000.00 raffle and give your unit all of the proceeds from it. This is my point, and this is how the original post began. As Ed said, he shouldn't, nor should any of us, accept a troop trailer that was earned by a raffle specifically targeted to provide us with this trailer. Taking a trailer is just like taking the money directly. And I'll ask this for a third time, why aren't the boys out earning this trailer themselves? Why are they looking for a handout from their CO? Scoutldr I understand your frustration but consider this. The United Way is not the one demanding 100% participation. It is politically correct corporations that are trying to make themselves look better. The UW is not sending out thugs and goons to collect this money, it is a corporate thing done by executives trying to feel better about themselves. As far as the UW taking in donations coming from raffles, etc... this is one of those gray areas where it would be impossible to sort out what donations went where, and even though our policies should stretch to our CO's, it would be too far of a stretch to take them to the United Way. They're too far up the food chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 OK, so the simple answer to this is for the CC and DE to sit down with our COR and explain up front what our criteria are for accepting "gifts". No targeted fundraising using immoral, illegal, or "against policy" methods. However, if the CO wants to budget a certain amount out of their annual budget and designate it for Scouts, we won't ask where the money came from. As long as they are not "avowed" BSA fundraisers, it's ok. (Sorry, couldn't resist that.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 The BSA policy is that they would like to see the BOYS earn their OWN way in Scouting. The BSA fundraising policy is there for the BOYS & the UNIT. The BSA has NO say-so over how the CO raises money for ITSELF. As scoutldr said, the bottom line is the CO can raise funds any (legal) way they like, as long as they do NOT advertise it as being for Boy Scouts. They can advertise it as a fundraiser for THEIR organization ONLY. What they do with their funds after they are in their bank account is up to them. It may sound like splitting hairs, but that is the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 If the CO wants to budget money for the Scout unit i sponsors we have every right to know where the funds come from. In most cases we don't ask. I think the point of this discussion is the CO when holding a fundraiser to benefit the Scouting unit it sponsors must follow the guidelines the BSA has set forth. Bob White, You posted in this thread that mentioning the BSA in a raffle fundraiser held by the CO is against the fundraising policy set forht by the BSA. In the thread about "Wine Tasting as a Fundraiser" you seemed to think this was OK since there were probably no Scouts present. So from what I gather, as long as their are no Scouts present or the BSA isn't mentioned in a fundraiser held by the CO, then it makes no difference what the CO is doing to raise money, according to you. WOW! I'm flabergasted! Where are your morals! Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASM1 Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 This is crazy! A VFW, or American Legion who CO a unit own the unit. They don't lease it, they own it. On the same note, the unit or members of the units may or may not be members of the CO. But, if the CO operates a legal fund raiser by their legal standards, it does not involve the BSA in any way. Even their units. They are not allowed to participate in the fundaiser by their legal restrictions. They can do what ever they want within the law and give the money to whoever they wish. And, just try to get a DE from anywhere to say you can't take the money. Yeah Right!!! He/She will be asking how much can be donated to the Council through FOS. ASM1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twocubdad Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Frankly, I don't see the big moral issue here. Why is a raffle inherently immoral? I understand the BSA's policy that Scouts should only take money for a value received. That's a good lesson for boys in thrift and industry. I also understand how a raffle doesn't meet that criterial. Every time I've ever bought a raffle ticket, I just considered is a cash donation and rarely even worry about what the prize is -- no "value received" whatsoever, and I've certainly never won anything. But on the other hand, Ed, if you do view raffles or bingo games as immoral, how to you justify a unit receiving ANY resources from a CO which uses such games to raise money. If such funds are "tainted" then what's the difference if the CO makes a cash contribution to the unit with the tainted money or make an in-kind contribution by using the funds to pay for utilities for the unit's meeting space? From a moral standpoint, what difference does it make that the CO laundered the raffle money by co-mingling it with other funds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Twocubdad, I don't consider raffles or bingo immoral. To me, it's that gray area that I like to stay away from. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 There are two issues here. One, what individuals find appropriate, moral, ethical, etc. and two, what is allowed by BSA policy. The BSA policy on raffles is quite clear, regardless of my personal feelings on them. Again, a CO owns (but it may have their charter revoked) their Units. A chuch may hold a raffle to generate funds and then use those funds to support a homeless shelter, unwed mothers and a BSA troop. Now, if proper guidelines were followed (as stated in previous posts), nothing is against BSA policy. Now, members of the troop may or may not find the methods distasteful and can act accordingly (voice displeasure, leave troop, lobby the CO, etc.). In Michigan, lottery sales (a tax on stupidity) generate funds for the public school system. Forget the fact that for about every $1 raised, a corresponding $1 cut in education funding from the general revenue occurs, it is all legal. Is it ethical? That is for individuals to debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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