Fund Raising Question

[evmori]

Thanks for your post silver-shark. I agree 100%

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[silver-shark]

Thanks Ed.

 

Bob, the point is that this unit wants to know if it's OK to circumvent the BSA's established system of values, by utilizing a third party. I believe that it would be naive to think that the boys won't know where this money came from if their chartering organization sells $10,000.00 worth of raffle tickets, then gives them a $10,000.00 donation. Nor do I think they won't hear what their CO wants to do to set up an entire system of raffles/gambling.

 

I don't know what the United Way or most other large (or formerly large) contributors are up to. I doubt the boys do either.

 

The perception of the boys is the paramount issue. I went to Nevada twice last year to gamble, but feel it would inappropriate to let the boys know that I endorse personal gambling, therefore I have not spoken about it in their presence. I also feel it would be inappropriate to endorse the use of alcohol by wearing a beer tee shirt to a campout, even though I'm not drinking on the campout. It also seems that cleaning up at a dog track sends a message that this vice is OK for them to try when they get older.

 

A scout is clean, is the 11th point of the Scout Law. This means in thought and deed.

 

Endorcing or encouraging known vices, whether legal or not, is not in the boy's best interest. They get enough other temptation in their lives.

 

We are supposed to be a safe haven for what is right, and positive values. Who are we doing this for anyway?

[Bob White]

"BSA has stood up and said that, gambling, of any type is inconsistent with the Aims and Methods of Scouting,"

[Bob White]

Silver-shark,

 

Again you have misrepresented what was said. The original post says that the church wanted to give the computer to the troop to raffle. That would be a violation of the BSA money earning policies. However if the Church wanted to give a cash donation to the troop the BSA does not care how the church chooses to legally raise their own money. They just can't use the name and image of scouting to do it.

 

You are welcome to your opinion but don't confuse it with the policies of the BSA.

 

Bob White

 

Just as a point of interest in evmori's first post he agreed that the CO could do the raffle and give the money to the unit (see the first few posts) and then after I posted he completely reversed his opinion.

What's up with that Ed?

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Bob,

I rethought my position since my original post & recanted. I am sorry I forgot to state so.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

That's fine Ed,

Now tell us what your opinion has to do with what the policies of the BSA are? The original post asked for the rules not for individal opinions. We have witnessed on this board in the past that most problems are caused by units operating according to opinions rather than the scouting program.

 

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

OK

 

Games of chance are a no-no. Raffles are games of chance therefore a no-no.

 

Seems simple to me!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

That is correct and it is what everyone has said on the subject of the unit holding a raffle. But you and silver-shark have expanded that to include organizations outside of scouting. The BSA does not attempt to regulate the legal activities of other organizations and if a group that does not affiliate the raffle with scouting wants to donate money from it to the Scouts the BSA does not prohibit or even discourage it. You are welcome to choose not to accept the funds but there is no BSA policy requiring that you refuse them.

 

BW

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[silver-shark]

Bob

 

I couldn't find the section in the Scoutmaster Handbook or the Troop Committee Guidebook that says that the BSA doesn't care how you get legally earned donations. Is this an opinion?

 

What does "free from the stigma of gambling" mean to you? If the BSA doesn't want the stigma of gambling touching them at one finance level, it seems rather presumptuous to assume that it is OK at another, since there does not appear to be any policy printed in the Scoutmaster Handbook or the Troop Committee Guidebook what-so-ever that covers how to handle donations. According to them, money is either to be collected by dues or Troop Money Earning Projects.

 

As in other subjects, the BSA intentionally leaves many things vague, but gives us the course to take with things like the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Also with our Aims and Methods, Ideals being the first of these Methods. When all else fails, these are what we have to fall back on and measure ourselves against.

 

 

[Bob White]

Again you misrepresent the rule silver-shark. The aims and methods are not even referenced in this policy. Yes, the ideals are specified but not in relation to the stigma of gambling but in the second qualification that the event be in keeping with the mission, and ideals of the BSA.

 

To clarify it for you, the ideals of scouting refers to the Oath, Law, Slogan and Motto. Any scouting event should be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, Etc., it should develop duty to God and Country, Duty to Others and Duty to Self. It should require the participants to be prepared. It should help develop critical decision making based on the Oath and Law. But that's only if it is a SCOUTING event.

 

Now keep in mind this rule is specifically for Scout Units and Councils planning a fundraising event. This rule has NO authority over any other organization.

 

You keep trying to force this rule onto outside organizations. A PTO is not required to follow the rules of scouting if it is not using scoutings name or image. And it is not required to have followed these rules in order to give money to it's scout unit. This policy is only about the use of the name and image of the BSA.

 

I don't understand why this is so difficult to keep in perspective.

 

The phrase that "unit events should be free from the stigma of gambling" means that in no way should it appear or be inferred that the BSA is doing the gambling. It does not mean that a churches womens group can not hold a raffle in their own name and donate the proceeds to whoever they want afterwards. They just can't use the name of the BSA, the scout unit or scouting in promoting the event.

 

And again you have misrepresented the facts because the Troop Committee Guidebook does indeed refer to the Charter Organization giving financial support to the unit. It is not called a donation because it is the charter organization's unit. They are not donating to themselves, they are funding their own program.

 

I have no problem with you turning away whatever donation you want. That is a choice for each unit to make. But you misrepresent the policies of the BSA when you say that scout units cannot accept money raised by outside organizations depending on how it was raised.

 

Bob White

[silver-shark]

Bob White

 

"Among a chartered organization's responsibilities are the following:

Conduct the Scouting program according to it's own policies and guidelines, AS WELL AS THOSE OF THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA." This is from page 156 of the SM Handbook.

 

You hit the nail on the head when you said, "It is not called a donation because it is the charter organizations unit. They are not donating to themselves, they are funding their own program." This is reinforced by the Troop Committee Guidebook which states,"Your troop is "owned" by a chartered organization, which recieves a national charter yearly to use the Scouting program as a part of its youth work. These chartered organizations, WHICH HAVE GOALS COMPATIBLE WITH THOSE OF THE BSA, include," etc...

 

This is just like a fast food corporation, (or the BSA), telling their franchisees, (the charter organization) how they will operate THEIR franchise, because basically, they ARE one and the same.

 

The troop and charter organization apear to be locked together in their goals and policies in the eyes of the BSA. You are absolutely right, they ARE funding THEIR OWN UNIT with any fundraiser they take on FOR THE UNIT.

 

Regarding your statement that, "the Troop Committee Guidebook does indeed refer to the Charter Organization giving financial support to the unit", I'm not seeing it. The only thing I see in either book is that they are to supply an adequate meeting place, select a Scoutmaster, and supply a Troop Committee.

 

The boys should be making their own money, not looking for ways to side step the polocies where they are looking for loop holes, which is basically what the original question asked.

[Bob White]

The differnece being that the restaurant that franchises the Mcdonalds food franchise is exclusive to the Mcdonalds business.

A charter organization does, and is, alot of other things that are tatally sparate of scouting.

 

And THAT is the point of the policy. As long as you keep Scouting separate then the rules of scouting do not apply. They apply only to the scout unit functions.

 

So no, Troop 50 sponsored by 1st Presbyterian Church cannot raffle a computer for a fundraiser using the name and uniforms of the BSA. But 1st Presbyterian church can raffle a computer and use the proceeds to fund their youth programs including thier scout Troop as long as they do not mention scouting in the advertising or sales of the ticket sales.

 

That may not sit well with you personally silver-shark, but it is consistent with the fundraising and trademark policies of the BSA.

 

Bob White

[silver-shark]

Bob White

 

"THAT is the point of the policy". What policy? There is no policy pertaining to how the charter organization should fund the scouting program. They are not required to do so. The boys are supposed to be earning their own way. Not looking for handouts.

 

When "they are funding their own unit", the charter organization that is, by doing a fundraiser directly for the unit, they are bound by the same policies as the unit. They are one of the 3 PARTS or branches of the unit as it pertains to the scouting program and are therefore bound by the BSA's policies.

 

If the CO wants to have a raffle and give the proceeds to a Sunday School Class, that is when they are separate from the unit.

 

Additionally, "free from the stigma of gambling". The definition of stigma, per MSN learning and research plus is; sign of social unacceptability. the shame or disgrace attached to something regarded as something socially unacceptable. Sounds like they think that gambling is not only shameful and disgraceful, but unacceptable, just like I said a few postings back.

 

If it's unacceptable for one branch of the unit, isn't it unacceptable for all 3 of them?

[Bob White]

Silver-shark

The chartered organizition is not a branch of the unit and is not refered to as one in any portion of scouting.

 

The policy is how a unit or council can raise money while affiliating itself with scouting. the BSA has no authority to set fundraising rules for non-scout units.

 

The rule we have discussed, or tried to discuss through this entire string does not reach beyond two entities, the Council and the Unit. It is not binding on the charter organization or any other group although you continually try to make such connection.

 

Bob White

 

 

[evmori]

Bob,

I'm not expanding this to outside organizations. All I am saying is if the funds being donated to a Troop come from something that is illegal then the Troop should not accept these funds. If the funds come from a raffle held by the CO, I would not accept them since this type of fundraising by a Scout unit is not permitted. No policy about this just my own morals.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10