UPS and Intel end support of BSA

[Horizon]

packsaddle asks:

 

"Why is San Francisco so expensive?"

 

San Francisco is surrounded on 3 sides by water - so there is little room for expansion. All of the available land has been developed already. All that is left is the ongoing gentrification of certain neighborhoods.

 

Other reasons for the cost:

Pay is good in the area (I should know - I have two open positions right now that are tough to fill): http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Location=San-Francisco-CA/Salary

Unemployment is below that of both California and the US as a whole.

http://bit.ly/UQHWZ8

 

So that means that supply is low and demand from well paid people is high. It is also a great place to live, the center of technology development in the world, home to two of the nation's best universities (Stanford and Cal), headquarters of many great firms, fantastic food, delightful climate, driving distance to skiing, national parks, and some decent surfing (though you need a wetsuit). The sailing in the Bay makes other racers cry.

 

The interesting (and semi-pertinent comment) note to add is that the smart real estate investor follows the homosexuals. They are often the first to gentrify an area, stemming from their outcast status. Once they move in - with a typical dual-income no kids component, the area starts to improve. This then attracts young couples who find a nice area with affordable housing. The area then gets better, more couples with strollers, etc. This is a small part of the controversy in the Castro - when it was just a crummy part of town with a bunch of gays and lesbians - nobody cared about the nudity. Once other people started hanging out, the population of the neighborhood changed, and some of the behaviors that were ignored for years are now an issue. Very interesting from an anthropological basis. Similar issues in the Haight - buy a place where the hippies congregate, and after awhile the hippies can't afford it and the "feel" of the area starts to change. I am still waiting for the Tenderloin to gentrify next.

 

As for our political debate - I prefer the Patrol Method Scoutmaster (L) for libertarian. Each Patrol determines its own path, and has the experience that they have chosen. A limited power Scoutmaster ensures that things do not go too far astray, but still gives the Patrols enough room to find their own path. Some Patrols might function as a commune, others as a dictatorship, still others as semi-organized chaos.

 

(This message has been edited by Horizon)

[Basementdweller]

ok I know what/where the perineum is............hmmmmm, uhmmmmmm I am at a loss as to why you would need to list that it can't be exposed?????

 

 

Ya, everybody I know wears lots of cloths, I am mystified by the cover your anus and perineum.....I live in a pretty conservative city I guess. Never seen anyone walking around nekid in public.

 

So what the heck is going on?????

[Eagledad]

>>Very interesting from an anthropological basis.

[Tokala]

How long until there are no youth enrolled in Scouting to teach these precious values too? Are we making the values more important than the young men and women that we would like to teach them to?

[Horizon]

Tokala - I disagree with your positioning. There is no need to go away from our values. Anti-gay is not one of of our values. It has never been taught, modeled or been a part of the program. More, tt is contradicted by the expressed faith and/or policies of many of our Charter Organizations.

 

Now, homosexuality IS preached against by many more of our Charter Organizations - and they should have the right to determine their own membership rules and choose leaders in the units that they sponsor.

 

Allowing local control would be a reflection of the Law of Reverent, and would maintain the role of the Charter Organization as well.

 

[Tokala]

Horizon, I think you misunderstood. I don't have a position. I am observing a declining interest and membership. I do believe that there will come a tipping point where the organization needs to take a solid look at what it is doing and what it hopes to accomplish. Holding to values is a solid principle; however, if membership keeps dropping there won't be anyone around to learn these values.

 

I have never heard 1 kid say they joined Scouting because it taught them values.

[Eagledad]

Well not only that, I work from real data, not emtional presumptions. I know some folks have personal experiences with familes choosing not to join because of the gay issue, but I can name many reasons why families didn't join scouts through the years. I'm not convienced, "At All" that the gay issue is a significant numbers problem for the BSA at the moment. It certainly isn't in my area.

 

Barry

[Pint]

One of the Issues that i see for the BSA is that with intel and UPs withdrawing support, who next?

 

The loss of financial support by a large organisation donating money to a far off headquearters may seem distant, after all what realy counts is what goes on in our local comunities, but if these big corporates withdraw suport what will the effect downstream be, will it still be as easy for leaders/Scout masters to ask for extra time off work, if their employers head office/affiliated company(ies) make it clear that they no longer support Scouting?

 

Then of course theres the press and media, like it or loathe it in order for Scouting to get its message out it needs good P.R, if the media are only pumping out negative stories ,then its going to become increasingly harder to promote scouting as the positive force that it should be.

 

 

[acco40]

At work today someone stopped me and asked about my bright orange lanyard that hold my badge (I work for a defense company). It has the words of our (closing in 2013) scout camp. I told him it was the name of a Scout camp and the next question he had is "What the heck is going on with Scouting?" Not sure exactly what he was referencing (God, gays, girls or recent council consolidation and camp closings) - I found out he was inquiring about he recent "perversion file" blow back.

 

Scout membership and community support is declining - and at a rapid pace in my area. Yes, exactly why is debatable (cost? perception? gay or religious issues?) but I say we (the BSA) can change the program without changing the mission - to teach youth to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

That mission was not compromised by getting rid of the beekeeping merit badge. It wouldn't change by allowing Scout leaders who agree to uphold and obey the Scout Law and Oath and who happen to be gay.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[AZMike]

"But Horizon, aren't you worried about the possibility that your son will become a....Presbyterian?"

 

At least he'll probably have a ministry, which is more than the Episcopalians will have if they continue to dissent and schism over the gay "marriage" issue. The South Carolina Episcopalian Diocese just voted to secede from the main body of the church over the issues of ordaining gays and gay marriage:

 

"Despite the presiding bishop of The Episcopal Church writing a pastoral letter to the members of the South Carolina diocese to stay, a majority of parishes voted to leave the denomination over its ordination of gay clergy and acceptance of same-sex unions.

 

The vote took place at a convention organized by the South Carolina diocese leadership at St. Philip's Church in Charleston on Saturday, Reuters reported. It followed the U.S. Episcopal Church's certification last month that South Carolina Bishop Mark J. Lawrence, who had criticized pro-gay positions of the denomination's hierarchy, had abandoned the church's doctrine, discipline and worship.

 

"This has never been about who is welcome or not welcome in our church," Lawrence was quoted as saying at the convention, attended by about 200 people. "It's about what we shall tell them when they come."

 

It's the fifth Episcopalian diocese in the country to leave the church's national body, which is part of the worldwide Anglican Communion. Congregations in San Joaquin, Calif.; Quincy, Ill.; Fort Worth, Texas; and Pittsburgh, Pa., also left the church in recent years.

 

Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/south-carolina-diocese-vote-to-split-from-episcopal-church-85179/#mXRWPUfIlO58ehms.99

[Deaf Scouter]

Some one sent me this UPS article via email and my first words were "Huh??? UPS has NO room to talk!!"

 

Being in the Deaf community, we've long had issues of UPS discrimination against hiring Deaf. NOW UPS wants to talk about BSA discrimination. Clean up your own backyard before you talk UPS is all I got to say... *ignoring UPS's comments against BSA

 

[Eagle732]

How does UPS discriminate against the deaf? Do they not hire them?

[Peregrinator]

what it is about gays that creates this phenomenon

 

Disposable income, few children, and a willingness to put up with things that many families would rather not. Also probably has something to do with wanting to be close to downtown, restaurants, nightlife, etc.

[Tampa Turtle]

I am experiencing some drop off from (minimal involvement)scouts and more vocal comments from my more liberal than me friends (who talk about how tolerant they are right before they are intolerant of my scouting and church).

 

I think the minimal involvement scout parents may use it as an excuse but they were not that committed. I think our drop off from Scouts is unhappiness from our boy-led transition; they either all-in or turned off. I am OK with that.

 

I am a little more concerned about the sharp drop-off in cross-over interest this year. I do not know the reason for it--it could be the controversy, competition, or a fluctuation. I think that may be where the danger is--cub parents redirecting their kids from "controversial" boy scouting to lacrosse and other sports. But it is still early in the cross-over season.

[DigitalScout]

When people say things like gay people are pedophiles or gay people are unable to control themselves sexually, I find that extremely offensive.

 

I understand and appreciate the views about homosexuality by some religions represented in the BSA members. But I don't think it's fair to press those religious views on the rest of us. There a plenty us who don't subscribe to their strict interpretation of the Bible or follow other religions whose beliefs are that homosexuality is a personal choice.

 

Gayness doesn't define a gay person anymore than my heterosexuality defines who I am. Gay people, can also be excellent parents, raise healthy, happy children, and have homes filled with love and happiness. That is a good thing!

 

By the same token, calling the conservatives "homophobes" is not fair or productive. We need to have continuing, respectful dialog to bring forth understanding and resolution about the gay issue in the BSA. And I applaud those who continue to stand up for the rights of the few and believe that the BSA policy will change eventually.

 

The great danger in republics is that the majority will not respect the rights of minority. - James Madison