11 year old not allowed to join Scouts as atheist

[packsaddle]

It's nothing beyond what I've heard from pulpits from time to time. He just forgot to include references to mud races, etc. But basically it's same old, same old. Been hearing this stuff since the 1950's. Before that they probably had it on the radio or telegraphed it.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Intolerant theists, like the UK scouting association at the start of this thread, are not content to allow atheists be atheists; they insist that atheists pretend to be religious by reciting oaths to a god they don't believe in, or to pray to a god they don't believe in just because it's time for everyone to pray.

 

By the way, SeattlePioneer, got any examples of intolerant atheists that meet your definition? Nearly all US atheists qualify as the tolerant sort.

[SeattlePioneer]

In case you haven't noticed, Merlyn, God is an integral part of the Scouting program. If you can't deal with that, DON'T JOIN.

 

You want your civil liberties as an atheist respected. You should respect the civil liberties of religious people in turn.

 

Atheists have no right to join BSA, nor should they expect any accommodation for their non belief.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

So SeattlePioneer, you're fine with badmouthing atheists, but when I ask for actual examples of these 'intolerant atheists,' you change the subject?

 

C'mon, give me some examples. Don't run away from your own statements.

[Sentinel947]

And there goes Merlyn, not understand that the BSA has the constitutional right to set it's membership standard (discriminate). Nobody is forced to do religious anything in the BSA. I cannot make the words of the Oath and Law explode from your lips. Only you can do that.

 

It's a shame Merlyn, because I agree with you that homosexuals and atheists should be allowed in the BSA, and that the program needs minor tweaks to them. However, unlike yourself, I will never advocate court action or brute political force to make that change.

 

You act as if ANYBODY's membership in the BSA is a right. It's not. I could be removed from my position and membership if somebody higher up didn't like me. Petty as that would be, that is a reality.

 

Membership in private organization is a priviledge, not a right. That in my mind is COMPLETELY separate from whether the BSA's current policy is wise or not, (I believe it is completely foolish.)

 

Ultimately Merlyn, you feel very passionate on this issue, and I applaud and I have sympathy for your view that all children should be able to have opportunity to join the BSA. I share that conviction with you, however, we do not share the methods to achieve that goal.

 

If you would like, find the section of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights that gives anybody the ability to use Government to remove Religion or it's trappings from a Private organization. Government can (and should) remove Religious Icons from Public Property, and Children shouldn't be force to pray in Schools, that's clearly in the bounds of the 1st Amendment, Freedom for, and from Religion.

 

However, You are trying to have your cake and eat it to. The Constitution doesn't generally apply to private organizations.

 

Secularism ends when the Government's reach does, and that key concept you seem unable or unwilling to grasp.

 

If you actually read my monologue here, I will applaud you again.

 

Yours in service,

Sentinel.

(This message has been edited by Sentinel947)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Sentinel947 writes:

And there goes Merlyn, not understand that the BSA has the constitutional right to set it's membership standard (discriminate).

 

Wrong, but that won't stop you.

 

Nobody is forced to do religious anything in the BSA. I cannot make the words of the Oath and Law explode from your lips. Only you can do that.

 

What are you babbling about now? I've been asking SeattlePioneer for examples of these 'intolerant atheists' he's been referring to.

 

Now, I did counter with examples of the sorts of things intolerant theists do, but you can't read if you somehow see 'boy scouts' or 'BSA' in there. I'm referring to things like this: http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2012/10/irish-atheist-pupil-who-was-forced-to-pray-claims-human-rights-violation

 

You act as if ANYBODY's membership in the BSA is a right.

 

No, I don't. You just can't read. I've never stated that.

[SSScout]

 

We really do need a F&C forum, but y'all know that.

 

What it boils down to, IMNSHO, is what is the "authority" people claim as being behind their actions. Agnostic folk aren't sure, atheists are sure it isn't a being that can't be seen or felt or sued for fault. Folks of faith claim it is a spirit or something that pervades all of the universe in one form or another and that has spoken to and inspired humankind on occasion to certain behaviors.

Now, the big problem, ultimately, is the seeming inconsistancy this Spirit has exhibited. For some, their inspiration leads to creation and tolerance and help for the less well. To other people, it leads to war, killing of folks that do not agree, and the enslavement or repression of folks percieved as "different".

Often, the people that profess a particular faith appear to not follow the tenets of that faith. The athiest and agnostic observe this and deduce that ALL the people of that faith are like that. Hence, religious folk are hypocrites and "God" is therefore a worthless concept. This concept can be seen at work from any faith, be it the nature based worship of our Native American brothers or the Christian or Hindu or Muslim. When the True Adherent of a faith (follower of Mohammed? Jesus? Ba'Hai? Lao Tze? ) is seen actually doing the teachings of his inspiring person/teacher, they are often seen as "wierd", a "problem", a "troublemaker" or worse. Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. come to mind. And Osama ben Laden. Then we get into a competition as to who has the REAL religion.

Wicca anyone?

Aztec human sacrifice is , ultimately, self-defeating. Voodoo has been adapted from African religions and mixed in with Catholic faith in Louisiana.

 

Ultimately, one man's miracle is another man's coincidence.

 

If it satisfies your soul (if you feel you have one), then good luck to you.

I dare say that there are some right good Christians out there among the athiests.

 

I personally think that SOMETHING is out there and has affected my life and spoken to me in sometimes loud, sometimes silent ways. Christianity, both as a religion and in personal exmples, has unfortunately often strayed from Jesus' teachings, to our regret.

 

William Penn said it well:

" The Humble, Meek, Merciful, Just, Pious and Devout Souls, are everywhere of one Religion; and when Death has taken off the Mask, they will know one another, tho' the divers Liveries they wear here make them Strangers."

 

Ya pays yer money and yer takes yer cherce.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

SSScout writes:

Agnostic folk aren't sure, atheists are sure it isn't a being that can't be seen or felt or sued for fault.

 

Nope, atheist means "not a theist," which merely means the person doesn't believe any gods exist. It does not suggest any particular degree of certainty.

[Sentinel947]

I decided to approach my previous post from the American perspective.

 

Merlyn posted: "Intolerant theists, like the UK scouting association at the start of this thread, are not content to allow atheists be atheists; they insist that atheists pretend to be religious by reciting oaths to a god they don't believe in, or to pray to a god they don't believe in just because it's time for everyone to pray. "

 

These kids are not being forced. Either they enter the BSA or the British Scouts, or they don't. If they enter, they are agreeing to the Oath. The Scouts insist that their members recite and follow the Oath. If they don't want to, then they cannot and should not be members.

 

Your next erronous statement:

 

"And there goes Merlyn, not understand that the BSA has the constitutional right to set it's membership standard (discriminate)."

 

Merlyn replys: "Wrong, but that won't stop you. "

 

I don't know when you were on the Supreme Court Merlyn, I'm not on it, and neither are you. They happen to agree with me.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_v._Dale.

 

So I'm not stopping anybody. I don't make the policy, and I happen to disagree with it. The Supreme Court of the United States says so, but you are so much wiser than those 9 Justices.

 

NEXT!

 

Sentinel 947 writes "You act as if ANYBODY's membership in the BSA is a right."

 

Merlyn writes: "No, I don't. You just can't read. I've never stated that."

 

Your statement is wrong here. I can obviously read. I was educated in a quite nice Public School, and I'm quite pleased with the education the USA has provided to me.

 

And in my honest opinion, you do act as if Membership of Atheists or homosexuals in the BSA is some sort of right. I'm willing to grant you that my statement is my personal opinion.

 

As for my "babbling" I am talking about this issue from the American perspective. I'm not as wise or as smart as you are Merlyn, I don't have enough information about the Scouts across the pond to make an informed post about it. Your vast knowledge of the British Scouts crushes my meager knowledge of the subject, and to be really frank, I don't give a hoot about the British Scouts membership policy.

 

If you want to make this an insulting arguement, I'll gladly let you win. However, if you want to have substantive, polite discussion you are going to have to do better my friend.

 

We don't have that many disagreements here Merlyn, and the personal attacks on my literacy is unnecessary.

 

Respectfully yours,

Sentinel

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

These kids are not being forced. Either they enter the BSA or the British Scouts, or they don't. If they enter, they are agreeing to the Oath.

 

The Scouting Association (not British Scouts) has said in the recent past that atheist youth CAN join the SA.

 

It's a meaningless gesture if atheists still have to "pretend" to be religious by reciting a god-oath. They're basically lying to atheist kids when they say they can join.

 

"And there goes Merlyn, not understand that the BSA has the constitutional right to set it's membership standard (discriminate)."

 

Merlyn replys: "Wrong, but that won't stop you. "

 

I don't know when you were on the Supreme Court Merlyn, I'm not on it, and neither are you. They happen to agree with me.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_v._Dale.

 

I mean you were wrong about ME. I do "understand that the BSA has the constitutional right to set it's membership standard(s)". Your accusation that I didn't know that was wrong.

 

Sentinel 947 writes "You act as if ANYBODY's membership in the BSA is a right."

 

Merlyn writes: "No, I don't. You just can't read. I've never stated that."

 

Your statement is wrong here. I can obviously read. I was educated in a quite nice Public School, and I'm quite pleased with the education the USA has provided to me.

 

And in my honest opinion, you do act as if Membership of Atheists or homosexuals in the BSA is some sort of right. I'm willing to grant you that my statement is my personal opinion.

 

Sorry, you really can't read. I have NEVER said membership in the BSA is some sort of right.

 

If you want to make this an insulting arguement, I'll gladly let you win. However, if you want to have substantive, polite discussion you are going to have to do better my friend.

 

Well, you'll have to learn to read better.

 

I will agree that my "Wrong, but that won't stop you" was ambiguous as to the subject of the sentence; I've clarified that above. However, both that and your continued misstatements about what I've said about rights shows you don't read what I've written, because I've never written those things.

 

[Peregrinator]

Intolerant theists, like the UK scouting association at the start of this thread, are not content to allow atheists be atheists

 

I don't recall anyone's saying that the boy shouldn't be allowed to be an atheist. Furthermore, it seems to me that they gave him every opportunity to meet their membership requirements. Do they or do they not have the right to set their own membership requirements? Oh, that's right -- you don't believe in rights.

 

This isn't the Hitler Youth. No one is required to join. If he likes scouting then he should find some like-minded friends and adults and start his own group. Actually, it's already been done for him: the BPSA.

[Sentinel947]

Merlyn: In the case of the British Scout Association, if they made the impression that Scouts who are atheists can join, than they should have an Oath that allows for that. They do not apparently. Perhaps they should have followed Baden Powell's exception for various countries, allowing for alternative phrasings with out God in them. Like I said in my previous post, your knowledge of the British Scouts is far superior to mine. Thank you for teaching me something new today.

 

I never said you wrote those things. I said "You act." For all of your harping on my literacy, those are two different statements. To clarify, That is the Impression you give. Clearly you just stated you do not believe that so that point is over. Merlyn does not believe being a Scout or Scouting Adult is a right. Case is closed. Correct?

 

You also cleared up the misconception of your statement about American Constitutional Rights of Private Organizations.

 

I wrote: "If you want to make this an insulting arguement, I'll gladly let you win. However, if you want to have substantive, polite discussion you are going to have to do better my friend."

 

Merlyn wrote: "Well, you'll have to learn to read better."

 

I'm afraid my reading level is high enough to allow us to have a substantive discussion. However, I'm continuing to extend the opportunity to be civil to you, and you are continually turning it down. I don't think civility rests on my ability to read does it?

 

I hope you can bear the advice of a fool like myself Merlyn. You can elevate your arguments on this forum. Rather than simply provoking angry responses from various members on this forum, ( an action that is generally called trolling), you can win people over to your viewpoints. However, your attitude sets many members of this forums thoughts in stone. Hopefully you can understand what I wrote. I'm an illiterate, but I'm working hard on improving my reading skills.

 

Sincerely yours,

Sentinel.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Peregrinator writes:

I don't recall anyone's saying that the boy shouldn't be allowed to be an atheist.

 

They aren't allowing him to be an atheist when the SA says atheist youth can join, but then turn around and say he has to pretend to be religious by taking a god-oath.

 

http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs185082.pdf

No young person should receive less favourable

treatment on the basis of, nor suffer disadvantage

by reason of:

o class;

o ethnic origin, nationality (or statelessness) or race;

o gender;

o marital or sexual status;

o mental or physical ability;

o political or religious belief.

 

They just don't live up to what they say.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I never said you wrote those things. I said "You act." For all of your harping on my literacy, those are two different statements.

 

I'll still criticize your reading ability, since you read things that aren't there. Pretty much the only knowledge you have about me is what I've written in this forum. If I've said anything that resembles claiming that joining the BSA is a right, quote something I've written. Otherwise I'll just keep telling you that you can't read well.

[Sentinel947]

Then I guess we've reached an impasse. I can clearly read and I have demonstrated such. I never said you said anything of the sort, I used the words, Act and Impression. Clearly you and I having this discussion is a waste of time. Maybe your vast powerful stealth campaign on the Scouter.com forums leads to the changing of the BSA's policy.