Perversion files released

[Eagle92]

Eng,

 

May I respond?

 

You all have to admit that we non-participants take a tremendous leap of blind faith turning our boys over to you for days or even weeks at a time with no communication.

 

We don't know anything real about you. Only what you portray when you are in uniform.

 

You can get involved in the program even in a non-camping support role. That will give you the opportunity to know leader. And the same can be said for other non Scouting program like baseball, karate, football ad nauseum

 

We know that in an critical situation, you are our boy's only hope of survival.

 

HORSEHOCKEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Properly trained scouts are just as good, and sometimes even better than adults who don't know squat. My life was saved by some scouts recognizing I had hypothermia. When I was helping out at an accident that involved a possible spinal injury, an adult wanted to remove the helmet. Luckily other adults with medical expereince were there screaming "NO!" at the same I did when the adult with no training when he mentioend that.

 

We know that our boy's cannot defend themselves from you.

 

Again I think you have little faith in the youth. While that may eb the case with Cub age kids, and that is my worse nightmare, the older kids I think may be able to hold their own.

 

We know that there are pedophiles among you. We don't know who they are, or how much contact they have with our boys.

 

Just like in sports and other youth programs

 

We also know that, in general, none of you will turn over (to the police) any of your brethren that might be molesting our boys. That when given the choice, you will more than like protect your organization rather than our boys. You've been doing it this way for 100 years.

 

two comments, 1)Do you really want to go there with me? I had to deal with this in the UK in when I was responsible for taking care of a cub scout pack and keeping them occupied while the authorities dealt with a perv and his victims. You really don't want to go there with me.

 

2) Same could be said for Penn State, CA state swimming, and a host of other sports programs.

 

I don't know what BSA will (or can) do to reverse this. As a private organization, you could have done anything you wanted.

 

Others have mentioned how to reverse this bad publicity.

 

I don't want my boy in Scouts. But it's not my decision to make.

 

Yes we know. But A) can you talk to your other half about your feelings, and more importantly B) what does the step-son have to say about it; does he want to stay in or not.

 

 

(Ironically, I have not read a single post where anyone with the SM or ASM badge has said ... "the next time I even hear of something like this, I'm going to the Police, because that's the right thing to do, BSA protocols be damned.")

 

You are now hearing it from me. I will report it. Depending upon the situation, it may be after I beat the crap out of the perv, but the police will be notified.

 

[qwazse]

Catholics have one-upped BSA.

 

E61, I understand the temptation to sweep things under a rug. I know that it is much stronger in families than in scouting. But you're right that it is not nonexistent in scouting. We can become too much like a family, and a "this will wreck our program" rhetoric gets thrown in every leader's face.

 

The authorities have been called at my request. It allowed a leader's name to be cleared.

 

I assure you, I have no problems calling the authorities on anyone who betrays our trust.

[Eagle92]

Been thinking about my reply. Want to apologize in my tone as I was extremely angry when I read Eng.'s post, and this issue is very personal for me for several reasons. I could have been more courteous in my reply. Again I want to apologize and reword my response.

 

Parents have many opportunities to get to know the leaders: volunteering, attending events as a parent, helping at functions, etc. In fact in one document in the files, the question of "Where the other adults(parents and leaders) at?" was raised.

 

One of the things about Scouting is that we teach Scouts what to do so they can become independent and do not have to rely on adults for help in emergencies. From teaching kids what to do when lost as a Tiger, to being able to rescue someone using skills learned in Lifesaving and First Aid Merit Badges, Skills are learned and there are hundreds of stories about Scouts making rescues. Just read the Scouts in Action series in BOYS' LIFE. And of course my two examples above.

 

As for Scouts not being able to defend themselves, while I concede that may be possible with the youngest Scouts: Tigers, Wolves, etc; we do try to train them in the Buddy system and YP in an attempt to prevent them from getting in the situations, as well as what to do when it does occur.

 

Unfortunately Pedophiles are attracted to youth programs, just look at the Califiornia Swimming situation and Penn State. BSA has placed safeguards in since the late 1910s, and have improved them as time went on. The standards of our society have changed and the methods used have changed as well. A lot of what we are reading is 30-50 years old.

 

In regards to not calling in the authorities, I stated what happened in the UK, and although I was not a victim as I was an adult at the time, that situation has left an indelible mark on me. I HATE PEDOPHILES! People have wondered why I have such a great hatred for them, and when I tell them the UK story, they understand.

 

Further I can tell you personal expereince that getting someone kicked out of the camp and reported to authorities is very hard on you both physically and emotionally, especially when it's a leader in your own unit. You become persona non grata within the community and the charter organization. I was fortunate in that I left that area after reporting due to a job, so being a pariah didn't affect me as much. But even if I was was staying and knew the response I was going to get, I would do it again in a heartbeat.

 

 

[WasE61]

Eagle92, your apology is, of course, accepted; but it wasn't necessary.

 

This issue is a hot button for everyone....and heat rises in most cases.

 

I've had a few discussions with my wife about it...they've never turned out well, so I've quit having them. She believes the problems are "somewhere else".

 

My son will be active again in a few weeks ... once Marching Band season is over.

 

 

 

 

[Sentinel947]

WAS: As an 19 year old Scouter, who obviously has no kids in the program, I can sincerely tell you that there are Adult Volunteers who do have your sons safety and development in mind. Eagle92 is obviously one of them. I'd like to add myself to that list. I'd care to venture almost all of the adults on this forum are.

[cubdadinnj]

There is a tremendous amount of information at the LA Times -- including the distribution of cases over years and by geography --

 

http://spreadsheets.latimes.com/boyscouts-cases/

 

and a profile of the accused

 

http://graphics.latimes.com/towergraphic-boyscouts-snapshot-accused/

 

absolutely horrendous the many many multiple cases of abuse...

[AZMike]

WasE61

 

"We know that there are pedophiles among you. We don't know who they are, or how much contact they have with our boys."

 

The single largest group of child molesters, larger than BSA leaders, or priests, or rabbis, or ministers, or swimming coaches, or even teachers, are fathers.

 

Not of the Catholic variety, but biological fathers.

 

I have no idea how many of you are molesting your kids, but I know many of you are.

 

"We know that our boy's cannot defend themselves from you."

 

I know that a child's ability to resist his molester, when he is his or her own father, is the most difficult thing of all, and much harder than resisting physical force or seduction by a molester. You fathers know their children better than anyone else, they depend on you for food and shelter, and you have private, unrestricted access to your victims most of the day.

 

"We also know that, in general, none of you will turn over (to the police) any of your brethren that might be molesting our boys. That when given the choice, you will more than like protect your organization rather than our boys. You've been doing it this way for 100 years."

 

We also know that you fathers have been molesting kids for millennia, and that few members of the family, including mothers and siblings, will go to the police, even if they strongly suspect or even know. That's the level of control you fathers have over your victims.

 

All that is true. I doubt you are a child molester just because you are a father (even as I am a father, and most of the people on this forum are fathers.) You should exercise the same common sense when defaming people just because they volunteered to help your kid in a youth program that you apparently can't be bothered to participate in. Most of us volunteered to help makes ure our kids were in a safe environment. Why can't you do the same?

[WasE61]

According to data from the CDC, the majority of sexual abusers are not family members.

 

Published that some time ago.(This message has been edited by WasE61)

[Gunny2862]

You know, the reason why I got into Scouting was because of my Spouse, who uttered the famous words "My baby isn't going anywhere with those Tan-shirted freaks unless YOU go with him!"

I think she actually meant for the first several outings, but look what happened then...

 

So now that he's aged out, I'm still doing trying to provide a good program. I still recognize that the public perception is out there, it hasn't changed, it hasn't gone away and it doesn't matter that other organizations now use our YP program as a model for developing their own. It doesn't make it easy to go out in public in MY OWN uniform, much more so for the boys.

 

WasE61, I understand where you're coming from in terms of wanting your child to be protected. But instead of taking proactive actions it seems like you enjoy coming here and belittling/berating those of us who are trying to do good things for children like yours (and ours). How about you keep a watchful eye and communicate with your son about his experiences and keep that vital communication line open so that if something that shouldn't does start to occur he'll talk to you about it, and in the meantime give the rest (even just maybe the majority) of us a break? Maybe the reason we give up so much of our time is to HELP your boy, and others like him. In my own case between a campout/bicycle trip, popcorn and Eagle projects, and a workday to prep for our major fundraiser and a recruiting/outreach to Webelos weekend I've been(and will be) working at least 8 hours EVERY one of the last 4 and the next 3 weekends.

 

And yes, statistically a family member is the most likely abuser, nice turn around AZ Mike. WasE61, I have no doubts you want what is best for your son, you wouldn't be such a pain if you didn't, but you are painting with a pretty wide brush...

[Tampa Turtle]

In our Troop we are red-shirted freaks.

[perdidochas]

E61 is correct. Most abusers are not family. About 30% of abuse is by family. 60% is by trusted people--family friends, babysitters, etc. 10% is total strangers.

 

 

 

http://www.apa.org/pi/families/resources/child-sexual-abuse.aspx

[Gunny2862]

Good citation perdidochas, the printed word takes precedence in discussions but when not provided I tend to listen to my spouse, on this topic, a Survivor and has a Masters in Psy. according to the APA she's in error on this point.

[Beavah]

Nah, not actually a great citation.

 

Yeh need to always dig a bit deeper and not take summary statistics at face value, eh?

 

Most sexual assault of minors is committed by other minors.

 

Once yeh subtract out that group, which falls heavily in da "friends" category, you are left with family members bein' more likely than others. Leastways, that's what I remember and what seems to be confirmed by pullin' da source documents.

 

And of course, since scouters are just a small subset of adults fallin' in da "friends" category, da risk of abuse by a father or other family member is substantially higher than risk of abuse by a scouter.

 

Given that, da tide of suspicion more properly turns toward any parent who carefully limits da contact of his boy with other adults in the community. Who keeps him home, who doesn't allow him to spend time or talk with others without being present, who raises objections to his son ever being away with non-family members who are goin' to be more likely to report on him than close friends and family members. Those are da sort of controlling behaviors that are the mark of a fellow who may be a family member abuser.

 

So these things do rebound on parents like WasE61, eh? Dependin' on da nature of his objections and da behavior of his stepson around him, a good scouter should start payin' attention. At some point, that might rise to da level of needin' to report a good-faith suspicion.

 

And yep, I'd make that report, regardless of any BSA rules. Da challenge is, as da files show, that just havin' suspicion or a credible report ain't enough for either law enforcement or children's services to act in most cases. So none of us should think for a minute that once yeh have dialed da phone, now everything will be OK. In fact, that's extremely unlikely.

 

Beavah

 

[WasE61]

"Da challenge is, as da files show, that just havin' suspicion or a credible report ain't enough for either law enforcement or children's services to act in most cases. So none of us should think for a minute that once yeh have dialed da phone, now everything will be OK. In fact, that's extremely unlikely. "

 

I think you'll find that in most states, that's no longer the case. Probably depends some on the locale (urban vs. rural). Authorities are extremely quick to respond here...

 

Also with the reporting rules being what they are now...suspicion of abuse (even without any physical proof) falls under mandatory reporting for many.

[Eagle92]

Beav,

 

While the public files now released, which are 30-50 years old and were under a much different set of standards, may be true, I know for a fact that just the accusation will get an adult kicked out nowadays.

 

Grant you it's anecdotal, but I knew a very well respected leader have her membership revoked because a "scout" accused her of making a pass at him. In this instance I use the term "scout" because the young man in question had a history of lying in order to get out of major trouble. Leader caught him after hours around the female shower house, but because it was a "he said, she said" situation, she had her membership revoked. I was told police did investigate, but there was no evidence. Still had membership revoked.