Sentinel947 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Peregrinator: Forget it, nothing you can say will possibly change Merlyns mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Sentinel, What do you think could be said that would change anyone's mind on this subject? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Peregrinator writes: Merlyn, do you believe it is a mark of good character to allow someone to retain membership in a private organization when he does not meet the membership requirements? Exactly which requirements? Being gay? Supposedly, gay youth are allowed. Or maybe not. Or not, if they're "avowed". What do the membership requirements say? Oh, nothing about being gay (or not being gay) at all. Does he not meet the BSA's religious requirements? The story quotes a BSA national spokesman as saying Recently, a Scout proactively notified his unit leadership and Eagle Scout Counselor that he does not agree to Scouting's principle of "Duty to God" and does not meet Scouting's membership standard on sexual orientation but there's nothing else saying how he disagrees with scouting's principle of "duty to god". It could be he's a god-believer but he disagrees with the policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrinator Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 So you would rather assume that he's being denied something arbitrarily? Is that indicative of good character on your part? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS-87 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Here's how that Board of Review would go: Board: Have you fulfilled all requirements of the Eagle Scout Award? Scout: I did the project and earned all the Merit Badges, but do not feel that a higher power is necessary to a person's moral development. I'm also homosexual and am disclosing that information right at this moment because I know that announcing that I'm homosexual is not acceptable decorum for Scouting. Board: Your position is well-stated, but contrary to our beliefs as a movement and the spirit of this award, and so we must decline to bestow this award upon you. It's really that simple folks. Getting upset on either side makes no sense. This kid is mad about not being able to earn an Award he has gone out of his way to disqualify himself for. Being an atheist and a homosexual didn't disqualify him from receiving the Eagle Award. What disqualified him was the exposition of these qualities. I understand that silence is painful, but a good person is defined by their actions, not by the Awards they earn. This Scout has learned to be "good without God" and now he must learn how to be "meritorious without Eagle" in precisely the same fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 So you would rather assume that he's being denied something arbitrarily? Yes. From what I can tell from the story, the only reason he's being kicked out is because he told his scoutmaster he's gay, which changed him from a closeted homosexual (ok for membership) to an "avowed" homosexual (not ok for membership). However, the BSA has never explained what qualifies as "avowed", and since he wasn't kicked out right away (something I've always advocated -- as soon as a youth indicates he doesn't meet the membership requirements, kick him out), as far as he could tell, he was still a member and worked on his Eagle. Kicking him out some time later seems pretty arbitrary to me. Is that indicative of good character on your part? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadenP Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 This issue comes up in here a whole lot, and it always seems to happen only at the EBOR, why do some leaders wait to question their boys. Why not at every BOR when the scout is asked about his scout spirit is he not also asked about his Duty to God? IMO this kind of negative publicity could be avoided if the troop leadership tackled this issue early on instead of saying nothing and allowing the boy to finish all the requirements for Eagle and then deny the award. Yes in this case the boy had a big mouth and challenged the EBOR but is the failure only with the scout, doesn't the leaders share part of the blame for not using each BOR as a way to make sure each scout is on track and meeting ALL the requirements of scouting??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoPenn Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 It doesn't matter what the insiders in the BSA think - what matters is what the general public thinks - and I suspect this is going to be yet another public relations black eye to the Boy Scouts because of their policy. Its one thing to have the policy and repeat it consistently - in the abstract, folks get it - it's quite another when the rubber hits the road, so to speak and the policy is invoked. When the BSA was using the policy to keep unmarried men out of the leadership positions, there was a lot of support - when they used the policy to boot out the mother of a tiger cub, they lost a lot of support. Now they're going to deny a 17-year old boy Eagle Scout after he's completed a project on, ironically enough, diversity. The public doesn't really give a rats patootie about those high minded "duty to God" statements - what many will see is the BSA bullying a high school student and certainly, many will see the statements by Deron Smith as being self-serving and not verifiable. We know the lad came out - he's verified that - we have no verification from anyone about the "duty to God" stuff, yet. I checked out the website of the sponsoring organization - a Presbyterian Church - they're currently in the midst of a Pastor search. It would be interesting to follow up in a few months after the new pastor has been installed to see if this has had any affect on the unit at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horizon Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 CalicoPenn - was it a PC USA Church? That adds another layer, in that PCUSA now ordains Gays and Lesbians. I would also like to know what the boy said about Duty to God - whether that was his words, or how the Council interpreted his coming out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 What's this about un-married men not being allowed in leadership positions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 The Presbyterian church does not forbid a congregation from hiring a gay pastor. Most don't - a few have. Pastors are hired all the time, all over the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NealOnWheels Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 packsaddle wrote: "What's this about un-married men not being allowed in leadership positions?" Yes, Calico, do tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 There was a time, prior to WWII, that some religious CO's discouraged young unmarried men from leadership. But, that has not been the case for a very long time; and I do not believe it ever was a National ban. Have to go way back in materials to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrinator Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 So, Merlyn, you believe that a mark of good character is to assume the worst about people? Do I have that right? Please correct me if I've misunderstood. In other words, rather than assume that the policy is being applied appropriately in this case because the young man is (a) an open homosexual, whatever that might mean for someone of his age, and (b) disagrees with the Scout Oath, the taking of which is necessary for membership, you've chosen to assume that the Scoutmaster in question, and the organization of which he is a part, are acting in a capricious and arbitrary manner. But perhaps you know more about this story than has been related in the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrinator Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Not to poke a hornets' nest, but is the type of service project described in the cited article typical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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