Schoolwork vs badgework

[yarrow]

One of our den leaders is signing off schoolwork for pin and arrowpoint activities. If they did color mixing in school or discussed rocks in school they are getting signed off. Does this work? Is it doubledipping? Do they need to do it twice? Once in school and repeat in the den or what? Thoughts.

[matuawarrior]

I too have seen this done in our district by a couple of troops. Scouts are told that they can get credit for work done in school. I do not agree with this practice.

 

I can see if the Scouts have asked the teacher to be thier MB counselors but for Scouts to have their MB cards pencil whipped for past work, I don't agree. To me there is no accountability.

 

In your situation I see it that the leaders don't have the time to manage the program properly. It's easier to ask boys if they done this or that and just sign away. But what are we really teaching them?

 

Maybe its me having a higher standard. I can not operate that way. I'm sorry for bantering but I have a serious problems with (adult)leaders who cheat on their boys and then those boys think its okay. (That's another thread,I'll start)

 

Sorry

 

Matua

[dan]

A Den Leader most likely knows if their son has done the work or not. It is silly to have them mix colours in school and than do it a week later in scouts. What does this teach them?

It will teach them that scouting is boring and stupid!

Either the requirment is done or it is not, I do not beleive that the book says it has to be done at a den meeting.

 

[matuawarrior]

dan,

 

I am sorry but I do agree with you.

Yes, a den leader would know what his son has done.

Yes,it is silly for a den to be redundant in doing a work that was done in school.

 

I was basing my reply on an experience where a den leader approved requirements without looking into the Scouts handbook, without talking to the parents who were present and just writing the awards on the advancement form. Four cub scouts crossed over to my troop three years later from that den (this happened 4 years ago). The only way we discoverd what happened was when one of the four scouts tried to get his tenderfoot badge by just telling our Adv. Chair he did the requirements in school and assumed that he would get his badge that way. We talked to the scout and parent and found out that all the scout had to do was tell Mr. so-and-so he did the requirements and he got his badge and pins. Who do we blame for that? The boy, the parents, or the den leader. That den leader is no longer involved in the program because his son dropped out because he was bored.

 

There is nothing wrong with having Akela: parents,teachers, or friends sign off on requirements that are done elsewhere from the den. It's the lack of accounting that concerns me. But that really is up to that unit.

 

Matua

[KoreaScouter]

This doesn't have to be an either/or, in my opinion. I think BSA has been very clever in the way they've intertwined advancement and MB requirements with things boys are doing in school, their homes, and their communities.

 

Where we live, the school system provides a mandatory drug/alcohol/tobacco prevention program to all 5th/6th graders, that includes a workbook and parental involvement. Guess what? I sign off 2nd Class requirement 8 on all of them, unless they're home schooled or go to school off base. For them, I've got a troop program.

 

Scholarship and Reading MBs are almost 100% overlaid on schoolwork (our counselor for both is our elementary school assistant principal). I can tell the Scouts' science projects in most cases without looking at the names, because they're almost always out of E-Science or another MB pamphlet.

 

I allow Scouts to "double dip" requirements between advancement and a MB if it's applicable (for example, using the cooking events for advancement and for the Cooking MB), but I won't allow "double-dipping" over two MBs (for example, using the same hikes for Hiking and Backpacking MBs).

 

Now, here's a question for you. You have a Scout who's been with the troop for a year or so, came right out of your feeder pack. Just came to you for his Camping MB blue card. He's got 12 camping nights already. Do you count them toward his 20, or make him start from zero?

 

KS

[kassie428]

We had the same problem in our Webelos den, I had a couple of boys who said they did the work for the Swimming Webelos activity pin at their swim team meetings and mom verified it. What I did rather than just take mom's word for it is I told the boys to take their Webelos book to the next swim team meeting and get the swim coach to sign off on the requirements. That way I know they actually did the requirements. We do the same thing with requirments that the boys say they have done in school. I send a letter to the boys teacher telling her who I am and what I need and asking her to sign off on requirements that the boy has done this year in school. Most teachers don't mind especially if the boy asks before or after class. This way it is fair for everyone, we don't have mom signing off on Webelos requirements that the boy completed while he was a Bear.

[evmori]

I'm with Korea on this. Multitasking a requirement is a good idea.

 

Good question. Based on the requirement all the Scout has to do is show experience in camping. The requirement doesn't say it needs to be with the Troop either. It does, however, need to be in a tent. I would sit down with the Scout & talk to him about these 12 nights of camping & then make my decision. If they fit the requirement, then I would count them.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver]

With all due respect guys, Yarrow's question has nothing to do with Boy Scouts and Merit Badges. The question is in reference to Cub Scouts. Up until Webelos, the parents are usually the ones who sign their books and inform the den leader when a requirement is met. Many activities are done at home. If a science project from school fulfills a requirement in the Wolf book, then the Cub did it. The requirement says do THIS task. It does not say where the task is to be done or that it must be separate from any other activity. Some of the athelete or sports requirements require playing a game of baseball or basketball. Does a den with 5 boys have to go find 13 other boys and play a baseball game in front of the den leader? No, if they play on a little league team they have met the requirement. Using school assignments that dovetail with Cub requirements is not wrong, it is right. My son's school had a reading program where they were rewarded for reading 100 books a year. To get a reading reward in Cubs, is he going to have to read 50 more books over and above the 100 he read for school? While the extra reading would be good for him, that is just plain nuts. Look, school assignments are easily verifiable. The boy has to turn in the physical assignment and receives a grade for it. What is there to doubt? Now, I don't think it is right or fair to use something the boy did 2 years ago to fulfill a requirement today. My son played baseball for 4 years before joining Cubs as a Webelos. He won 2 state championships. Can he count those hundreds of baseball games he played before he joined scouts as part of his athelete requirement? NO. He has aced every requirement for his athelete activity pin many times over. However, he has not earned the pin because he has not played any sports since joining Cubs.

[Bob White]

One of the best residual benefits of scouting is that it promotes learning in allits forms. We should not care if a Cub or Boy Scout learns at a scout activity, home, school, or where ever. what is important is that he learns and that he receives positive reinforcement for learning so that he is motivated to learn more.

 

There is nothing in the scouting program that prohibits activities done outside of the den or pack activities from being accepted for advancement, providing it meets the requirement criteria written in the boy's handbook.

 

Be careful not to confuse personal opinions with scouting methods.

 

Bob White

 

 

[KoreaScouter]

I think we're in violent agreement here. And, if you've had the privilege to serve both the Cub Scout and Boy Scout programs, you know that in Cubs, just about anyone can be Akela, including parents. Then, when the lad crosses over into his first Troop, parents can't sign off on advancement or MBs unless they're registered leaders/counselors. At my new parents' meetings with them, some react as if they've been hit by a 2X4. And then, they take another 2X4 when I tell them that in most cases, their son's advancement requirements will be signed off by another boy! The looks are priceless...

 

KS

[ozemu]

We call it competency based training. If you've done it to the correct standard somewhere then you are accepted at this level everywhere else. Works for adults.

 

Seems the arguement has become more about whether someone is checking that the work was in fact done elsewhere and that the standard is equal or better.

 

As Yarrow states it this is not the issue. Double dipping was the major point - and as it works for adults I adhere to the same standard for Scouting.

[ozemu]

"...in violent agreement..." Oh that's good. Missed it the first time. It's not even late - no excuses what-so-ever.

 

 

I think I'll log off....

[fboisseau]

I got in this discussion too late to add much, but to recap.

 

In Cub Scouts the parents sign off on the requirements and the Den Leader then initials and records that the requirement is completed. In this case things done at school or elsewhere can and should be counted toward requirements.

 

At the Webelos level this changes. Now the Den Leader or who ever the leader designates signs off on the requirements. The parents should not sign off any requirements, except maybe the ones under family member. If a Scout does something outside of a den meeting, the leader should expect proof that the requirement was completed before signing off on the requirement. This is part of the transition from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts and from what I can tell from some of the post this is what failed with new Scouts that crossed over. This is why I believe that Webelos leader training is one of the most important for a leader to take. Failure for a leader to understand, at this level, what their job is can cause the type of culture shock that causes boys to drop out after they cross over. The idea is to get the boys to the point that they are comfortable going to someone else, other than their parents, when they need help with something.

 

In Boy Scouts a parent should never sign off on a requirement, unless it is for a merit badge that the parent is teaching to a group of Scouts.

 

[Bob White]

fbouseau

I think we would all agree that in Webelos the Leader or their assisigned agent signs the requirements. That does not prohibit the leader from accepting schoolwork if it meets the requirement in the handbook.

 

It would not make sense that schoolwork was acceptable for all ranks in cubs and scouts except for Webelos.

 

Bob White

[SR540Beaver]

fboisseau,

 

Not that I totally agree with it, but my son's Webelos den leader has authorized parents to sign off on requirements. I found out because I asked if the work had to be done in meetings or could it be done at home as well? I asked because it became apparent to me that with 21 activity pins, there was no way they were all going to get covered in meetings. Both she and the Assistant Cub Master both told me to do any of them outside of den meetings that we wanted to and inform the den leader so she could initial them and award the pin. I agree, it does not transition well to the troop environment. But my son is perfectly capable of completing all 21. If we don't do some on our own, it will never get done in meetings one hour a week, three weeks out of the month over nine months. Besides, I want my son to learn something and get value out of it. I've seen what is accomplished in the den meeting that passes for earning a pin. On one requirement of knowing who the president was, the whole group was asked, a couple of boys shouted out the answer and they ALL got checked off. When my som had handyman to do, I had him change a light bulb, patch a bicycle tire, oil the chain, check the air in the car tires and wash the car all by himself. I was right beside him, watching and teaching.....but he did the work. If we had done it as a group, we would have had 9 boys wash a car and get into a water fight. Fun? Yeah! Learn anything of value? No.