Thank god your here......

[Eagledad]

>>Ignorant people at grocery stores agreeing with you doesn't make something right.

[Lisabob]

Barry, I certainly hope you aren't suggesting that people keeping their thoughts on controversial issues to themselves, as opposed to taking out their political anger on cub scouts, has anything to do with the first amendment? Because THAT would be ignorant.

 

The first amendment guarantees people the right to be free from GOVERNMENT impingement on speech and religion (within certain widely drawn boundaries, as identified by the courts). In the situation BD describes, there is no indication that GOVERNMENT is involved.

 

In this situation we are talking about private (non-government) individuals deciding whether or not they wish to participate in a fund raiser held by a private (non-government) group, on private (non-government) property.

 

The first amendment has nothing to do with being a decent human being and choosing not to rant at children about some policy issue over which they have no control. That's just manners and emotional maturity, there.

 

 

 

 

 

[Callooh! Callay!1428010939]

The OP doesn't make clear... were they ranting or were they being cordial? Were their political remarks addressed primarily to the adult leader present or to the boys? Were they up on a soapbox addressing all and sundry like politicians... or was this more like a friendly chat in which they let slip some views that tolerance can't tolerate?

 

There's no mention of having to shoo them away and apparently money was accepted from them, so they couldn't have been too dangerous.

 

"immediately thought of the hate spewed on this forum about this issue...."

Don't worry about the hate spewed... it's like water off a duck. Those who support BSA's policy or don't care about the issue enough to oppose the policy, are used to having tolerant and inclusive folk spew hate at them.

 

What seems a bit underhanded though, is how the OP tries to make the couple that praised BSA's policy sound ignorant by quoting them as using the possessive pronoun where they ought to have used the conjunction of the second person plural pronoun and the second person plural conjugation of the verb "to be." Surely, they said "...you're here," vice "...your here."

 

[Eagledad]

>>Barry, I certainly hope you aren't suggesting that people keeping their thoughts on controversial issues to themselves, as opposed to taking out their political anger on cub scouts, has anything to do with the first amendment? Because THAT would be ignorant.

[Lisabob]

Barry, perhaps we're talking past each other. What I got from your post was that you felt somebody's freedom of religion or speech was under threat. For that to be true, there would necessarily have to be a governmental actor involved since, by definition, the freedoms of religion & speech as described in the 1st amendment are protected from governmental threat.

 

In this situation, I don't see any government action going on, so I don't see how it makes sense for you to invoke the 1st amendment by referencing freedom of religion and freedom of speech.

 

 

[Basementdweller]

I took it that the folks were supporting the stand.... Oddly enough there was a chic fillet and hobby lobby with in a couple of hundred yards of our sale location....

 

Very white and very conservative....

 

My point is that scouter. Com is the only place that the gay rights folks can push their views on scooters... My comment out the very vocal minority..

 

We were way out of my popcorn selling turf and didn't even get yelled at by any other scout leaders.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

I've seen Scouts selling popcorn at the local hardware store the last several times I've been there. I talked with a couple of them today. I should have asked them if they've had anyone express any political opinions. Maybe next time. I did ask them how things were going, and the only issue they mentioned was that a lot of people have already bought popcorn. They said they were making some good sales, though.

 

Basementdweller, there are undoubtedly lots of people who share the same opinion as the people who talked with your Scouts. There are lots of people who have an opposite opinion. I think it's clear that the views expressed on this forum are probably a bit more on the side of remove-the-gay-leader-ban than what the average population might express.

 

I say that because my sense is that this forum has shifted over the years to the point where the majority tend to be opposed to the current policy. The general population, though, has continued to vote down gay marriage proposals, and the Scouting population tends to be a bit more conservative than the average population.

 

Your post represents a reminder of why the national level organization is finding it hard to make a shift. They have some vocal supporters with very strong opinions. In addition to the man-on-the-street commentary that you describe, I'm sure that there are also some very conservative, older, wealthy supporters of the BSA who hold similar positions. As do the leaders of some of the BSA's big religious supporters.

 

There are nevertheless a large number of people who hold the opposite opinion. My oldest son, in college, and my daughter, in high school, report that virtually no one they know is opposed to gay marriage. The big corporate supporters of the BSA are going to be in favor of scrapping the current policy.

 

So you're right, there are still plenty of people out there who are big supporters of the current policy. It is indeed odd that this political argument is playing itself out at the ground level of boys selling popcorn.

[Horizon]

Glad you moved some popcorn, and glad the boys had a good time selling it.

 

This is an issue that will play out differently depending on where you are, and the class of people you interact with.

 

My church ordains gays and lesbians, has many gay and lesbian members, and had cub scouts selling popcorn after services for the past couple of weeks. Even the most left-wing members of my congregation (and we have a lot of them) were lining up to buy some popcorn to support members of the congregation.

 

At the same time, I have now received another call from a parent about our Pack's policy on gays and lesbians. I talked to the parent, told them BSA national's position, told them that it is completely irrelevant to providing a quality program for the kids, and told them that I while I personally object - I still support Scouting and its ideals.

 

So I think push back and support is going to depend on where you live, and who walks by you. I have had heavily tatted bikers buy from us, and I have had Girl Scout moms refuse. You just can't tell who will support, and who won't.

 

But again - glad you moved some boxes to support your unit.

[scoutingagain]

The downside to this is that the BSA has become so identified with this issue. If it truely wants to serve a broad spectrum of society it needs to be off the frontlines of the culture wars otherwise it runs the risk of being percieved as a subset of one side and ignoring or offending the values of half the country. It is not a sustainable position for membership growth.

 

There's a reason Chic-fil-et changed it's offical policy on gays. It has nothing to do with the owner's personal position and everything with wanting to be growing business serving a broad customer base.

 

If the BSA wants to become a cultural icon for religious conservatives they have every right to do so. However they will leave a great many youth that could benefit from the program behind.

 

SA

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

"Actually, the american people have spoken on gay rights repeatedly. 30 something states have voted on gay marriage and every time its voted down. Why cannot people accept the it."

 

How about because the Constitution of the United States is partly designed to protect people from the tyranny of the majority. Or would you prefer to live in a country that allowed the electorate to willy-nilly choose who gets rights and who doesn't because while voters may be passing referendums to prevent gay marriage, the margins are getting smaller and smaller every year as more old folks die and more young folks, who have a completely opposite perspective start to vote. Perhaps you're more than willing to let those younger voters decide in about 10 to 15 years, that people older than 65 will no longer have any rights and will have to face "carousel" - go find the movie Logan's Run and tell us you want the kind of future for you and your family.

 

As to the original post, I've heard an interesting blend of reports from folks on show and sells - they've had folks come up and say that they're glad the BSA is holding firm, they've had others say they won't buy becuase of the policy, and still others who donate directly to the unit without buying popcorn because they know the unit isn't at fault but they won't support the pros because of the policy. But most people either just ay no thanks, or I've already bought, or walk past without a word and some folks just buy.

 

Yesterday, I bought another tin of caramel corn (darn cub scouts!) - and I was flabbergasted when one of the Cubs, with no prompting from anyone, started complaining that the product was too expensive to try to sell. Oh, and I recall in one of the threads someone bemoaning the loss of the tins - I live close to the border of two councils - one has the tins, one has the bags. The bags are from Trails End. The tins are from Pecatonica River. I've tried both and I prefer the caramel corn from Pecatonica River. If you used to have tins and now have bags, ask your council why they switched suppliers.

[Peregrinator]

How about because the Constitution of the United States is partly designed to protect people from the tyranny of the majority.

 

Why is it that we're only now discovering that the Constitution gives special protections to homosexuals?

[SeattlePioneer]

Unfortunately, court decisions that have defined pretty much any and every organization except churches and political organizations as places of "public accommodation" for the purposes of anti discrimination laws have pretty much imposed thought control on the gay rights issue in the United States.

 

Institutions are no longer free to organize behind moral issues if the moral issue involves homosexuality.

 

About the only private organizations free to do so are BSA and St Patricks Day parades, and it took the US Supreme Court to free those organizations from the thought control of anti discrimination laws.

 

Unfortunately, those laws have become some of the most extremist legislation in the country --- done primarily by the courts themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scoutingagain]

"Why is it that we're only now discovering that the Constitution gives special protections to homosexuals? "

 

There is nothing in the constitution that gives homosexuals special protections or rights. Most court cases have basically said there is nothing in the constituion that DENIES homosexuals the same rights heterosexuals have. That's why the social socialists have had to go back to their legislatures to pass laws to specifically deny homosexuals certain rights and priviledges enjoyed by heterosexuals. The social socialists have used the power of state and federal goverments to deny a specific subset of the population the right to marry who they choose to.

 

So let's understand who's imposing their views on who through the government.

 

SA

 

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm....

 

I reckon there are opportunities here, eh?

 

Set up a popcorn stand.

 

Have an additional donation box for people who want to express their support da BSA's position on Timeless Values.

 

Have a second donation box for people opposed to da BSA's position, who want to express their displeasure and just give to the local scout program and its kids.

 

To really juice returns, set up an electronic scoreboard under each, with $ amount or number of donations.

 

Beavah

 

[Oak Tree]

Ooh, ooh, ooh, I like it.

 

Not sure if Lowe's would go along with it. And I fear that someone might call the council, but it would be worth it just to give it a try.