Leadership temper tantrum

[SMT224]

Im getting really tired of this whole "gay & the Scouts" issue being caged as some kind of a monumental civil rights issue. When it comes right down to it, its a bunch of selfish adults who are throwing a temper tantrum because they cant be a leader! So I have a very simple message for these folks:

 

Guess what? Its not about you! Its about your son! So what if you cant be an official Scout Leader! Big deal! Who cares? Get over it!! You can still be an active parent! Your son can still be a Boy Scout and experience all Scouting has to offer. And you can be there to help him do it! The bottom line is that Scouting is about your son experiencing the outdoors with his friends, learning to be a leader through failure in a safe environment, and becoming a self reliant man through a program that can be found nowhere else!! Stop being a baby and grow up! Its not about you! Sacrifice a bit of your all mighty pride and think about your son and what he really needs to become a real man! Its not the end of the world if youre not a leader! Stop whining and think about someone else besides yourself! You had a kid, now deal with it! Take care of him & put his needs first! Scouting is about him, not you!

 

 

[qwazse]

Geez,224,

 

Next thing you're going to "no big deal" that my 21 y.o. male co-advisor and I can't take the ladies in my crew camping without a female adult.

 

Thanks for lacking the love, man.

[Beavah]

Yah, I hear yeh SMT224. Same deal, to be honest, with da "no fat people" rule at Philmont. Send your son for the time of his life, and stop whining.

 

I also agree with qwazse that it's perfectly absurd two guys can't take a mixed-gender group out in the wood but two ladies can take an all-boys group out. What's up with that?

 

At the same time, remember da biggest issues so far have been in Cub Scouting, where parents are expected to be more actively involved as leaders. I don't reckon da Wolf Cubs really have any sense at all for sexuality issues, eh? They just like Joey's mom as Den Leader.

 

B

[CalicoPenn]

I believe I mentioned that this time around, the issue has a bigger media impact because now the BSA isn't just slamming the door shut on single folks being leaders, now they're slamming the door shut on parents.

 

So why should that make a difference because, as SMT says, they can still be Scout Parents?

 

Here's how - Because being a Scout Leader creates a different dynamic with their sons than being just a Scout Parent - and for most leaders, that dynamic is an important part of the whole experience that they want for their sons. Think about why you became a Scout Leader - think about how important that was to either or both you and your son. How many Cub Scout leaders became leaders because their Cubs asked them to? Ask around at roundtable and other district events and I believe you'll find a lot of leaders answering yes, that's exactly why they became leaders, because their sons asked. Yeah, sure, some might argue that its because another leader asked them, but in my experience, the ones who are quick to say yes are the ones that already were thinking about it because Joey asked first and they were just waiting for an opportunity.

 

Now, we have a new set of parents coming in, and as much as some would like to turn back time that set of parents will be around for a long time to come. I saw the writing on the wall 7 years ago when there was a spate of stories about gay couples adopting infants - eventually, those infants would be Scout age, and the BSA was going to face exactly this dilemma.

 

To call parents that want to serve as leaders for their sons selfish, and having temper tantrums, because they refuse to stand back and let the Boy Scouts of America treat them like second class citizens, to say on the one hand "your son is welcome' while on the other hand "but you aren't" is despicable. No wonder Scouts are hearing snide comments while selling popcorn.

 

Who is really being selfish here, and throwing the temper tantrums? In my opinion, it's those who refuse to accept that times have changed, and are trying to keep other parents from serving in the same way they did for their children.

 

Indeed, to answer those who insist that the Boy Scouts continue to discriminate because they don't like the other people: Guess what? Its not about you! Its about your son!"

 

So what if you no longer have an exclusive right to be a Scout leader!

 

"Big deal! Who cares? Get over it!! You can still be an active parent! Your son can still be a Boy Scout and experience all Scouting has to offer. And you can be there to help him do it! The bottom line is that Scouting is about your son experiencing the outdoors with his friends, learning to be a leader through failure in a safe environment, and becoming a self reliant man through a program that can be found nowhere else!! Stop being a baby and grow up! Its not about you! Sacrifice a bit of your all mighty pride and think about your son and what he really needs to become a real man!"

 

Its not the end of the world if there are gay leaders!

 

"Stop whining and think about someone else besides yourself! You had a kid, now deal with it! Take care of him & put his needs first! Scouting is about him, not you!

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

The simple fact is that there is a widespread disagreement about the propriety of homosexuality.

 

BSA has a clear position on the issue.

 

A week ago I was asked about homosexual parents joining Cub Scouts with their son --- the pack I work with and for which I was doing recruiting. I pointed out that homosexual parents and boys were welcome to join, but that parents should expect not to be asked to become leaders.

 

If you don't like that policy --- don't join. It's as simple as that.

 

The established fact is that Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts has a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to maintain its values.

 

Please respect our constitutional liberties just as homosexuals expect others to respect their rights.

[SMT224]

CalicoPenn, as far as I'm concerned, I do not want to know what someone does in their home, in their bedroom, in their very own bed! It's not only none of my business, it's nobodies business! Who they love is their very own business as well. I do not need or want to know.

 

I concur, "Its not the end of the world if there are gay leaders!" And things will likely change to this effect.

 

But right now, here and now, the rule of BSA is that gays cannot be leaders. The point of my rant is that that doesn't have to exclude the sons of gay parents her and now. Yes, we may all want to change things by and by, but now is what we have to deal with.

 

And for all those who vehemently oppose the current, especially those with sons who could be Scouts, are, in my most humble opinion, selfish. Selfish because they are not thinking of their sons, who are only Scout age for a very short period of time, but their own perspective on the issue. And yes, selfish because they are tossing the baby out with the bathwater just because they cannot be a leader. While I agree that being a leader whilst your son is in Scouting can be an important part of his Scouting, not being a leader is not a reason to not let your son be a Scout!

 

There are plenty of non-leader parents whose sons do just fine in Scouting, have fun, and advance to Eagle. I know. I've seen 'em. So, yes, I do find it selfish for a gay parent to say to his or her son, "If I can't be a leader, then no Scouting for you."

 

There are a lot of things that are despicable in this world, as much as we would like change, we still need to deal with the here and now. And while adults may want the the reality of Scouting to be different, it is still an outstanding program to transform boys into men. Why deny a boy from all the benefits of Scouting just because his mom or dad cannot be a leader?

 

If is wasn't denied them, they probably wouldn't want to be a leader anyway! But since it's not allowed, they want it all the more! If they were required to be a leader, no doubt they'd be complaining about that.

 

My point is that it's not about the adults, leaders or not. It's about the Scout. It's about our sons. It's about now, not when the world is perfect.

[NJCubScouter]

SMT, I would suggest looking at this outside the context of the "gay issue" and then putting yourself in the place of the den mother who was told that she could no longer be a den leader for what she believed was an invalid reason. (I assume that's the case you are talking about.) So now you have been informed that you can no longer hold whatever position you hold, for what you believe is an invalid reason. It doesn't matter what the reason is, someone might think you're too fat, too skinny, too tall, too short, or maybe a District Commissioner or someone doesn't like the clothes you wear, or your politics, or whatever. To you, it's an invalid reason. Do you go quietly, or do you say something?

 

And why do you use the term "temper tantrum"? As far as I know, this particular former den mother hasn't actually yelled and screamed about the issue. She spoke up about something she thought was unfair. It's ok to do that, the BSA says so in the description of "A Scout is Obedient."

[Tokala]

I find a thread beginning with a tantrum about tantrums...amusing.

[SMT224]

Alas, the point of my post was neither to have a tantrum nor to accuse an offended Cub Mom of something she didn't do. It was to point out that it's not about her, but about her son. And should she be offended by being told that folks like her can't be a leader? Yes! And of course it'd understandable that she would feel like taking her marbles and going home. But how does that help her son? To pull him away from his friends, so he can sit at home or in front of the TV while they have all the fun? Sorry, but there are all kinds of things in this world that offend, but sometimes we just need to get over it and think about who Scouting is really for - not the offended Cub Mom, but her son.

[NJCubScouter]

I don't think "we" (meaning the public) really know whether the boy decided to quit when his mother was kicked out or whether she pulled him out of the pack.

 

But of course, in this forum, if there is an absence of complete facts, it is customary to make up one's own.

[nldscout]

The main issue here is that there is a rule, no gay leaders period. BSA has said thats the rule and they are not changing.

 

If you don't like the rule, you don't have to stay. Move on to some other youth group, find another calling, leave scouting alone. Quit trying to disrupt things for those who choose to follow the rules.

 

I am at a loss to understand why people won't accept the rules. You don't see anyone complaining about other people that cannot be members.

[Eamonn]

I'm very much with NJCubScouter.

 

Maybe it's just a little bit too easy for me to adopt the idea that I'm OK and this doesn't effect me, attitude?

While the BSA is a private organization and does have every right under the law to say who can and who can't be leaders in the organization.

At the end of the day discrimination is just that discrimination.

I happen to think that this just isn't right.

 

I'm not gay and can't say what I'd do if I were.

But if the BSA were to say that Roman Catholics were not allowed to serve as leaders.

I'm sure that my kid would never have been a Scout.

I'm also left handed, not an American citizen and have an English accent.

While the BSA might have every lawful right to say that it only allows right handed Americans who talk with a southern drawl to serve as leaders.

Again I'm sure I'd say that this is just wrong.

I do think that one day things will change.

To be honest I don't see it happening any day soon.

As parents we allow our kids to participate and join organizations that reflect our own values.

I think that telling a gay parent that they need to set their values to one side so that their son can become "what he really needs to become a real man." Just doesn't hold water.

Ea.

 

[SMT224]

In our Troop, less than a third of the Scouts have a parent either on the committee or as a Scoutmaster.

 

I do not see that the other two thirds suffer or are less successful in Scouting because their parents are not an official BSA registered leader in the Troop. Having an active participatory parent is helpful, but not always a guarantee of success. I've seen many Scouts of "drop-n-go" parents make it to Eagle just fine.

 

Bottom line: If a parent is not a leader, for what ever reason, the Scout can still participate and excel in Scouting! It happens!

 

The gay leader issue focuses on what the parent can or cannot do -- forgetting about the Scout! The assumption by all seems to be that if the gay parent cannot be a leader, then their son cannot be in Scouting. This is not true. Again, if they don't become a leader, so what? Most parents are not leaders! Is it that their feelings are hurt because their son wants to be in a club they can't join? Or that it doesn't reflect their values in absolutely every shape and form? Goodness! Get over it! Stop being so sensitive!

 

[nldscout]

So Eamonn and others,

 

What about the local convicted child molester, murderer, or other convicted felon? They have kids, do we allow them because they may be a parent?

 

 

[scoutingagain]

Well there is no national ban preventing convicted child molesters, murders or or other convicted felons from being adult members in the BSA. A local CO and Council would have the option of granting membership, unless of course they happen to be an avowed homosexual. The BSA has explicitly stated that avowed homosexuals do not represent the kind of moral example they want in their adult leaders. All other categories are accepted or denied membership based on the discretion of the local CO and Council. Now I highly doubt a CO or Council would accept a heterosexual child molester, but there is no national ban against it that I'm aware of.

 

So if one was a gay parent, why would they choose to enroll their child in an organization that considers them to be so immoral that they are banned from membership at the national level, unlike any other category of alleged sinner.

 

SA

 

SA