Why not girls or atheists?

[packsaddle]

tgrimstead, if you ever make it over this way to NC, you should try SunDrop. It's the original soft drink that Mtn. Dew is a poor knockoff of. (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Platypus96]

Packsaddle, I am sorry about that remark. I feel I let my anger get the best of me. So to Peregrinator and everyone else, I apologize for that attack.

 

Peregrinator, I am sorry, but I do not know what atheist regimes you are referring to. Could you please explain that statement?

 

As for people Not having the right not to be offended, I'm not sure what you mean by this. I am going to assume that you never went through the process of losing your religion. Please correct me if I am wrong. But for those of us that have, it is a very long process. It often includes learning a great deal about the religion you were raised in. You learn how it judges people. What warrants damnation. How non believers are punished. You realize that a majority of people believe that you deserve eternal pain and suffering only because you don't believe in their god. That includes your family, friends, bosses, teachers. That is a hard realization. Schools are supposed to be places of learning. Safe places or students to better understand the world. They should not be just another place for them to be taught they are different. If you want to learn religion, go to a church. No one is stoppin you But religion should have nothing to do with a school.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Now, you may think that saying group prayer in school, or even just seeing a prayer banner in the school, may not be an imposition.

 

Right, I do think that because it is not an imposition. What is an imposition is the eradication of religion from public schools.

 

Well, in the US at least, that hasn't been done.

 

No one is forced to take part in prayer (that would be an imposition).

 

Public schools do not have the authority to promote religion; that's unconstitutional.

 

The only force employed is to make certain that religion doesn't show its face in public schools.

 

Again, that isn't done in the US.

[tgrimstead]

PackSaddle,

 

I am a Virginian in Carolina and have had Sun Drop! Back when they associate sponsored Dale's #3.

On topic: How about we agree to the others right to be wrong. anybody? anybody?

(Joking)

Yours In Cheerful Service

 

Tim

Elizabeth City, NC

Virgina Beach, VA

[tgrimstead]

1.) Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

Ummmm...is this the amendment folks keep throwing around? Cause it don't say nut'n about no religion in schools. Sorry.

 

 

Yours In Cheerful Service

Tim

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The first amendment puts limits on what the government can do, and public schools are run by the government.

 

If you want a more detailed breakdown, try Engel v. Vitale

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=370&invol=421

[tgrimstead]

1.) Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

Not that I'll change your mind. But.

- It says Congress shall not make a law in the creation of or against a religion.

- A law against prayer in school would contradict that whole law against a religion.

- It does say freedom of speech, which would mean you could pray anywhere anytime.

- Congress would mean Federal government.

- State Governments run Schools. State Governments have there own Constitutions.

- Religions paid for the first public schools in America starting in 1600's

- For the following 200 years churches were used as schoolhouses during the week.

- Why are we as a nation wasting energy in such a trivial argument of opinion.

So....In the document forged in blood,sweat, and tears of our Nations greatest minds and leaders....where does it say no prayer in school??

 

Please, this is not an assault on your personal beliefs, and I don't want to hear about so and so says this means that and such and such judged ruled this thing. Sorry, You won't change my opinion. I was always taught if you want to learn what something says, read it. Don't believe what someone just tells you. Now if you want to say YOU don't like it or agree with it, I can understand/respect that. The Sally Sob story of someone who you heard was an Atheist and got threatened, OK. Millions of people have been murdered through religious persecution, join the club.

History: the original symbol for Christians was the fish not cross. Would a fish offend you?

My final piece. Everyone believes in different things. How much better would the world be if we were all the same! Boring and uninteresting conversations at the least. Wanting everyone to change to accommodate your version of right is well...wrong. I'm just thankful we can even have this discussion without fear of knocks on our door and being hauled away to a camp or prison somewhere.

You want to make things better here? Vote everyone out top to bottom. set term limits on all elected positions. Limits on how many elected positions can be held by a person in a career ( 2 state, 1 federal, etc). No political parties at all! Maximum age limit!! Have Senators actual look out for the states interest instead of being a Federal flunky. You must have a balanced budget!! Period! Make it happen. Now that would be revolutionary. ( sorry this really had nothing to do with the rest )

 

Yours in Cheerful Service,

Tim

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

- It says Congress shall not make a law in the creation of or against a religion.

- A law against prayer in school would contradict that whole law against a religion.

 

Yes, but that's not the case here.

 

- It does say freedom of speech, which would mean you could pray anywhere anytime.

 

Try that argument by entering the white house when it isn't open to the public.

 

- Congress would mean Federal government.

 

Until the 14th amendment.

 

- State Governments run Schools. State Governments have there own Constitutions.

 

But the 14th amendment prevents state government from infringing on rights guaranteed by the federal government.

 

- Religions paid for the first public schools in America starting in 1600's

- For the following 200 years churches were used as schoolhouses during the week.

 

Not relevant.

 

- Why are we as a nation wasting energy in such a trivial argument of opinion.

 

Why are you?

 

So....In the document forged in blood,sweat, and tears of our Nations greatest minds and leaders....where does it say no prayer in school??

 

It doesn't. Don't you even know what the argument is about?

 

Public schools can't promote religion; that's not within the power of the government, federal or state (states used to have this power, but not now).

 

 

(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[tgrimstead]

(But the 14th amendment prevents state government from infringing on rights granted by the federal government.)

No right has been infringed upon. Please re-read the first amendment. Maybe third times the charm.

 

-Why are we as a nation wasting energy in such a trivial argument of opinion.

 

(Why are you?)

 

Well I'm stuck on another 72 hr shift at the Firehouse. But since we are going juvenile on responses. Ok my turn.. I don't know why are you?

 

I've yet to see any proof of any government entity pushing any form of religion on anybody. No one is required to join the government run Church of America.

 

As my dad always said: " It's not that your wrong, your just not right." Perspective is key.

 

Yours In Cheerful Service,

Tim

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

(But the 14th amendment prevents state government from infringing on rights granted by the federal government.)

No right has been infringed upon. Please re-read the first amendment. Maybe third times the charm.

 

Read actual court opinions.

"We think that by using its public school system to encourage recitation of the Regents' prayer, the State of New York has adopted a practice wholly inconsistent with the Establishment Clause."

" Neither the fact that the prayer may be denominationally neutral nor the fact that its observance on the part of the students is voluntary can serve to free it from the limitations of the Establishment Clause"

 

-Why are we as a nation wasting energy in such a trivial argument of opinion.

 

(Why are you?)

 

Well I'm stuck on another 72 hr shift at the Firehouse. But since we are going juvenile on responses. Ok my turn.. I don't know why are you?

 

I happen to think first amendment rights are important, particularly in preventing the government from promoting religion.

 

I've yet to see any proof of any government entity pushing any form of religion on anybody.

 

Well, here's one example. I can easily come up with more:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/01/11/jessica-ahlquist-has-won-her-lawsuit/

 

No one is required to join the government run Church of America.

 

"Voluntary" isn't sufficient to make it legal. The government only has the powers granted to it by the people, and promoting religion isn't one of them; not only that, it's expressly prohibited.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[Eagle732]

"In God We Trust"

 

 

[tgrimstead]

 

Nope, sorry Merlyn. No evidence.

(It doesn't. Don't you even know what the argument is about?)

-Argument was about Aethiests and Girls joining scouts. Then was highjacked.

 

(Public schools can't promote religion; that's not within the power of the government, federal or state (states used to have this power, but not now).

 

- Supporting your students right to have beliefs and exercise them is not the same actually promoting a Religion. First amendment was to stop a Church of England incident.

Freedom of religion is not Freedom from religion. Period.

 

Your obviously heavily indoctrinated in your view. You feel you have a righteous crusade for the 1st Amendment, almost religiously......HHHmmmm..

 

Your never change my views so we can stop here or continue banter knowing the other will never consed. Lets just agree that the other guy is wrong and move on.

 

Yours in steadfast defiance,

Tim

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Nope, sorry Merlyn. No evidence.

 

Court cases aren't evidence now?

 

(Public schools can't promote religion; that's not within the power of the government, federal or state (states used to have this power, but not now).

 

- Supporting your students right to have beliefs and exercise them is not the same actually promoting a Religion.

 

But this doesn't include having the school push religion on students.

 

First amendment was to stop a Church of England incident.

 

If you'll read what Madison wrote, it included quite a bit more than that.

 

Freedom of religion is not Freedom from religion. Period.

 

And the constitution doesn't use either phrase. But both concepts are there.

 

Your obviously heavily indoctrinated in your view. You feel you have a righteous crusade for the 1st Amendment, almost religiously......HHHmmmm..

 

You're obviously heavily into denial, so much so that actual court cases are irrelevant. I like living in the real world.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[Peregrinator]

Public schools had prayer for nearly 100 years following the adoption of the (non-ratified) XIVth Amendment. So I am confident in asserting that the XIVth Amendment was never intended to overturn prayer in schools. In the XIXth century, yes, children were forced to say prayers in school and forced to read from the Bible (in many cases, the KJV). Those "offended" by this practice (e.g., Catholics, who were actually more than merely "offended," since Catholics were not permitted to read the KJV at the time) sought redress at the local level and when that didn't work, started their own school system. Which is exactly what those opposed to the BSA policy don't appear willing to do - start their own program.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Public schools had prayer for nearly 100 years following the adoption of the (non-ratified) XIVth Amendment. So I am confident in asserting that the XIVth Amendment was never intended to overturn prayer in schools.

 

Well, I'm confident that it's interpreted that way now.

 

. In the XIXth century, yes, children were forced to say prayers in school and forced to read from the Bible (in many cases, the KJV). Those "offended" by this practice (e.g., Catholics, who were actually more than merely "offended," since Catholics were not permitted to read the KJV at the time) sought redress at the local level and when that didn't work, started their own school system. Which is exactly what those opposed to the BSA policy don't appear willing to do - start their own program.

 

You omitted the part where people were killed over which version of the bible to use in public schools.