The One Finger Salute Spin Off

[Eagle92]

Someone asked where the one finger salute, flipping the bird, shooting the bird, whatever you want to call it, came from.

 

This is what I was told.

 

The gesture is English in origin and is a polite version of the Two Finger Salute, which is the CS Sign or Peace Sign with the knuckles facing the person you are trying to tell to "go forth and multiply" as one book politely called it.

 

It stems from the Battle of Agincourt where French knights, upon learning that the English were using bowmen for the battle, stated they would cut off the two fingers used in archery of bowmen they capture.

 

As we know, the English longbow was instumental in the French defeat at Agincourt, and to celebrate the victory, and taunt the French, the bowman raised their hands, showed their two fingers and told the French to....

 

..."GO FORTH AND MULTIPLY!"

 

Again this is what I was told when I was in the UK and made the mistake of using the two-finger salute in representing a rear site on a rifle. The Girl Guides freaked out, and reported the incident to the camp warden where this discussion came about. Got the Agincourt story confirmed in a British history book, but not the as a polite form.

 

As for why the bird reference, I'm guessing thatbefore firearms, bows would have been used,a nd hence the connection.

 

Now I was also told that Churchill's famous "V" sign was suppose to have the knuckles out instead of palm out, and was to be directed at Herr Hitler, but I cannot confirm that one.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, da internet is a wonderful source of rumor and dubious research, eh?

 

Here's another that I found:

 

The Romans referred to the middle finger as digitus infamis or digitus impudicus (dirty finger). It had much the same meaning as today. The Emperor Caligula insulted people by making them kiss his middle finger instead of his hand. Another Emperor, Augustus Caesar, expelled an entertainer from his presence by an obscene wave of his middle finger.

 

The Romans did not invent this gesture, however. The earliest recorded mention is a play "The Clouds", written by the Greek Aristophanes in 423 B.C. Even then, the middle finger has a clear, obscene and sexual use. It is unlikely that the ancient Greeks were the founders for flipping the birdie. More likely, flipping someone off goes back into prehistory.

 

 

[packsaddle]

I suppose I have myself to blame for this...but it's the 'bird' part of this that I still don't understand. What does it have to do with birds? The closest I can find is something about pheasant feathers on arrows. And that story just doesn't seem to have the same panache that the gesture currently carries.

 

I wonder if anyone has tried to patent it or protect it as a trademark?

[Beavah]

From Eric Partridge's "Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English." In obsolete theatrical usage (Partridge gives a date of 1883), "the bird" is defined as "a hissing of an actor," from the sound made by geese. Giving someone the bird remained a theater expression, particularly in vaudville, into the 1920s, and may have become associated with the hand gesture at that time.

 

I believe that "hissing like a goose" was a common expression in Victorian Britain. Da Brits seemed to have a thing about geese. "Silly goose". "Mother Goose." "Goose bumps" "Gone Goose" "Goose egg" "cooked goose" "goose chase" "sauce for the goose" "wouldn't say boo to a goose", etc.

 

Silly flippin' bird if yeh ask me, eh?

 

B

 

[packsaddle]

The fact alone that the source is someone named 'Partridge' makes me want to believe it. It sure sounds better than anything else I've read.

[raisinemright]

I was driving a bus once and following a fellow driver in our group. In order to make a certail left turn at a light, it was necessary to straddle the lane, otehrwise, it was not possible to complete the turn. Some guy in a car flipped me off as he drove by. I called my buddy on the radio and told him that the guy in the gray car just gave me the "International Finger of Friendship" at which point, my friend's bus started "drifting" into the cars lane just enough to get his attention.

 

Since then, in my lexicon, the bird is known as the international finger of friendship.

[OldGreyEagle]

What a trove of information this is, the Battle of Agincourt is, of course, the setting of one of William Shakespeare's best soliloquy found in King Henry V

 

"... We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he to-day that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,..."

 

As far as the rigid digit goes, in French class we had a three word poem Voila la doigt

 

what can I say, in 1970 in a prepatory seminary, it killed

[CalicoPenn]

Audiences have hooted like owls and hissed like geese for a long time to express dissatisfaction. Though not restricted to the theatrical arts, it was probably most common there (much easier to hiss at actors in a play than to hiss at the mayor and not get into trouble). Even Shakespeare made reference to the practice in Troilus and Cressida (about 1602) when Pandarus, in the final speeh, says "my fear is this, some galled goose of Winchester would hiss" and he wasn't referring to the bird.

 

By about 1860, "giving the big bird" was slang used to describe the hooting, hissing and booing at events and likely referenced the hissing of geese and hooting of owls - both big birds. Giving the big bird was a well established taunt but by the Victorian era, booing was the primary means of vocalizing displeasure and through the vaudeville era, giving the big bird meant the booing, hissing and catcalls of the audience.

 

According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, the one finger salute wasn't known as "the Bird" until the 1960's and was likely a re-defining of "giving the big bird" from the verbalized taunts to the physical taunt.

 

As for where "Flipping the Bird" came from? It probably came from Broadside Magazine, a music magazine from the 1960's and 70's that mostly followed the folk revival and had a pretty broad definition of what folk music meant. It appears that the earliest printed use of the phrase "flipped the bird" that has been found was in a review of a Grateful Dead concert (well that should have been obvious) in 1967 when the writer wrote "The Grateful Dead flipped "the bird" to the audience, tuned their instruments, blew up amps - for what seemed like forever - then disappeared, leaving people disappointed and brought down." Use a phrase like that in an influential magazine about one of the most followed "folk" bands on the planet and you've got yourself a new and lasting phrase. (Info from English Language and Useage site).

 

Oh - and as for the Battle of Agincourt as the origins? That is most likely what we would call an urban legend based on another legend that the English archers were motivated by a speech that the French would cut off their middle fingers (or alternatively, their index and middle fingers) if they were captured. In none of the written, contemporary (written at the time) accounts of the Battle of Agincourt is there any mention of English archers showing the French their fingers. It's doubtful that a story that the French would cut their fingers off would have swayed the archers because they knew if they were captured, they would be killed. The story that Henry had told his archers the French would cut off their fingers came from sources in Burgundy which soon after Agincourt was declared an enemy of the Crown of France and likely was told to jazz up Burgundians. The Burgundian chroniclers of the battle weren't eyewitnesses, and since Burgundy was fighting on the French side during the battle, how would they possibly know the contents of a speech Henry (if he even made such a speech) made to his archers.

 

As with all urban legends, they tend to get more detailed over time, and when more details are added, the legend becomes less and less likely. For instance, it's claimed that the English used the salute as a way of saying they could still pluck their strong, English yew, bows. Just a couple of problems with that - bows are drawn, not plucked - if the English had plucked their bows, the arrows would travel about 2 inches - maybe - English long bows at the time had a draw weight between 80 and 180 pounds. The other problem is that every one of these tales all claim the bows were made of English yews. They were not - English yews are too moist, they can't dry enough to be able to make a long bow with the draw weights that the English were getting and even at lower draw weights they break too easily. The yews the English used came from Spain and the Italian alps. Plus "Pluck Yew" - really? An 8th grader can tell you what that would mean. That really should be the biggest hint that the Agincourt legend is just not true.

 

Finally, the two-fingered salute was likely a late 19th, early 20th century invention by the working class of Britain as it doesn't appear to have ever been mentioned being used prior to about 1900.(This message has been edited by calicopenn)