BartHumphries Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 "Why then does it not work the same way for society?" Free will. People are free to do their own crazy thing (and they do) while "natural" objects follow set natural laws. It's not rocket science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 There's a reason that 'The Simpsons' has been so successful, Americans love them so much, lol. Bart (no relation to the Simpsons), are you suggesting that humans are not subject to natural laws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrinator Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I am willing to entertain the possibility that individualism can ONLY produce this outcome But I've not said that. Of course the individual can choose to subordinate his goals to those of his family. And maybe the various systems of individualist philosophy (Objectivism excluded) even make allowance for that. The point is that individualist philosophy doesn't give any reason for it other than it makes one feel good. The error lies not in the fact that this is the ONLY outcome of individualism (it isn't) but rather that individualist philosophy has no basis for making a moral judgment when it IS the outcome. An individualist can't, for example, condemn a man who leaves his wife and children to start a new family with a younger wife -- at least not on moral grounds. He might find it distasteful but he can't say it's immoral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSA24 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 Meanwhile, two guys are still discussing the topic... Bart said: > Not just the LDS church, there's the LDS, Catholic, and Methodist churches, whose websites > say that they don't support homosexuality. That's 39.32% of registered Scouts, There are a lot of assumptions there that we have no facts upon which to base them: * Units would fold if CO's said they were out * CO's would follow their national guidance * CO's national orgs are united on these policies as perceived * BSA would not default to local control which would not threaten CO's at all The UMC doesn't support the policy. Don't know where you read that. They have asked it be changed. > Losing such a big hunk of Scouts, though, wouldn't just hurt finances. T > hat'd be a lot of Scouts leaving I don't think it will be that bad. It is inevitable. When it happens, it will end with a whimper and not a bang. LDS will get some special exception, the others will shrug, there will be two news stories of gay guys joining troops, and then not a another sound about it ever again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 >>I don't think it will be that bad. It is inevitable. When it happens, it will end with a whimper and not a bang. LDS will get some special exception, the others will shrug, there will be two news stories of gay guys joining troops, and then not a another sound about it ever again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisabob Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Um Barry, BSA already sells property to "save the program." Are you certain you aren't confusing correlation with causation? Even if you aren't, since this horse has already left the barn, what the heck, we might as well open the doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 >>Are you certain you aren't confusing correlation with causation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BartHumphries Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Even if the Methodists don't leave, that's still over a quarter of registered Scouts over the whole US if the LDS and Catholic units close up shop, and well over half of all Scouts in the Western region. Some of the boys might go find another troop somewhere, but most parents just go with the easy youth organization that's offered and most kids just go where their parents send them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSA24 Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 Bart, A television blitz paid for by AT&T would replace those kids in one cycle. We're talking 200,000 nationwide - maybe. Remember that LDS signs up every kid in the church, but only a small portion actually participate. It's a way of funneling LDS money to BSA. Barry, BSA already did this when they allowed blacks to join. Everyone said it would die. It doubled its size. It doubled again. And again. And again. History says that lowering the discrimination gets rid of controversy without really doing anything negative culturally to scouting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 >>Barry, BSA already did this when they allowed blacks to join. Everyone said it would die. It doubled its size. It doubled again. And again. And again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Then Barry, why doesn't the BSA follow the Scout Law and Oath and state the reason we have this policy is because we don't want to risk a membership decline? Yeah, that doesn't sound very good. How about - the reason we have this policy is because the vast majority of our charter organization members believe this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 >>Then Barry, why doesn't the BSA follow the Scout Law and Oath and state the reason we have this policy is because we don't want to risk a membership decline? Yeah, that doesn't sound very good. How about - the reason we have this policy is because the vast majority of our charter organization members believe this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnponz Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 The leadership is probably doing what the chartered organizations with the most authority want them to do. These COs are LDS, and the Catholic Church among other religious groups. This policy provides cover for the COs. They do not have to exclude gays as the "local option" would allow. Instead they can point to a National Policy. This is part of what a National organization does. It provides cover for those on the ground. These organizations have a lot of power within BSA. Indeed more than the volunteers and that is the reason the Executive Board will not overturn the policy. They are reflecting the wishes of the COs. You could try to change the mind of the COs, but that will not happen because their stance is faith based, and any attempt to change it based on reason (this is not saying that faith based groups are not reasonable. It is only saying that secular arguments based on reason will not change their minds) will not work. As long as the majority of COs (by majority I mean each unit's individual CO), believe that gays should be prohibited by policy they will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 But Barry, that is not the public reasoning that the BSA is giving for their policy. It is not money, it is not members. Their reasoning is the "role model" issue (morals to some).(This message has been edited by acco40) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BartHumphries Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Yes, and to some it is a moral issue. I believe the point is that there could be a monetary issue for those who don't see it as a moral issue. Sorry typed on phone Edit: corrected spelling from the phone(This message has been edited by BartHumphries) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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