So do the AHG allow Gay and Lesbian Leaders and youth???

[NJCubScouter]

Well, Basementdweller, the AHG (as quoted above) says that marriage is a "lifelong commitment", which of course it is, but a lot of people don't seem to treat it that way, and sometimes it just doesn't work out to be that way. And different religions have different viewpoints on the consequences of ending that "lifelong commitment." I suspect that the AGH, like the BSA, practices "local option" on the issue of divorce, as the BSA does 98 percent of the time anyway. It's that other 2 percent...

[frank10]

Basementdweller - As long as your only curious you can join.

 

[Basementdweller]

I am a fellow who like to keep a tote board if you will..

 

If you are

 

Gay

Lesbian

Not a United States Citizen

Divorced

Adulterer

Fornicator

Anything but Christian

 

 

Forget about being a member........

 

 

and we thought the BSA was tough on Atheist and Gay/Lesbian crowd.....A

 

 

So where is the outrage on the forum??????

[Bando]

Don't forget, Basementdweller, if you do want to have non-Christians join up in your local AHG unit, or even Christians who don't adhere to their Statement of Faith (and its associated theological clarifications), you can just "fudge it a bit" to make sure they join you instead of GSUSA.

[Lisabob]

Since I'm not a member of the AHG, nor do I plan to be, I'm not particulary concerned with their policies.

 

The thing about BSA that sparks outrage is that it makes certain claims about who and what the BSA is, that are contradicted by its current membership policies.

 

So far as I can tell, AHG does not play this game so much. They are reasonably clear about what they believe and that they will try to inculcate those beliefs in their members. Those beliefs don't appear to be hidden from their members. And they don't seem to be seeking special treatment or breaks as a gov't-run entity or public accommodation. So, as a private, exclusionary, religiously-based club, the AHG have a right to their policies and membership standards. I don't care much for them, but they do have that right.

 

Unfortunately, the BSA seems to be in a long decade of identity crisis. They used to have strong relationships with public/gov't entities like public schools as COs, but once the BSA asserted that they are a private club that discriminates on the basis of religion (no atheists/agnostics), they lost that quasi-public identity and many of the benefits that went with it. Now people whine about that loss. They seem to have a program that "all boys" can join, but not gay or atheist or agnostic boys. Or, a boy can be a member as a "youth" for up to 15 years (1st grade in Cubs through age 21 in Venturing) and then suddenly be ineligible on the day of their 21st birthday, as an adult who is also gay. Or, a leader can be hailed as a role model until and unless they get "outed" by daring to mention their life partner/spouse/sig. other to the wrong folks, yet sleep-around-Sam who cheats on his wife and gets divorced 8 times and fails to pay child support, all while running a grow op, is considered a potentially fine leader under national BSA policy, so long as he's hetero and a theist. Their Doctrine of Religious Principles is murky and appears to prohibit some actual religious groups from being members, yet the BSA also goes out of its way to allow and endorse those same groups being members. They hide their official policy banning gay adult (and youth?) members, making it hard for current and prospective members to know exactly what the BSA policy is. They hold secret committees, that may not even have existed, that allege to have "studied" these super-double-secret policies, but they won't share any details of who, how, when, or where that was done. They say they don't want to bring sex into scouting, yet apparently they said in the Dale briefs that a core teaching of the organization is that homosexual behavior is immoral, thus bringing sex into scouting - and yet I know no scouters who spend time actually teaching this specific doctrine to the boys in their units, and you couldn't find this teaching articulated in the literature the BSA provides, like the Scout handbooks and syllabi for scout leader training.

 

Hypocrisy and identity crisis are really at the heart of what makes people outraged at the BSA. I don't care much for AHG and want no part of that organization, but at least AHG seems fairly clear about who and what they are.

[Brewmeister]

Hypocrisy and identity crisis are really at the heart of what makes people outraged at the BSA.

 

This is the fundamental logical flaw used by any who would quickly bash an organization, BSA, relgious, etc., for failing to live up to a set of standards.

 

It's so much easier to have no standards and then just let anything go, isn't it?

 

But the fundamental premise of Judeo-Christian belief is that humanity is imperfect and those imperfections must be atoned for, and have been. The existence of those imperfections does not negate the value of the standard.

 

Or to put it more simply, "hate the sin, love the sinner."

[Basementdweller]

Here is the Rub Lisa

 

We have folks like Seattle who are going to utilize their BSA connections to bring the AHG to the Public Schools.

 

I have said it before.....the BSA has no business with the AHG especially if we are going to admit openly gay leaders in the next few years..... I is going to happen, there simply is too much pressure and when the corporate money dries up over it gays will be allowed to be members.

[Lisabob]

Oh, I agree basement, AHG has no place in public schools. But neither does BSA, really (as the private, exclusionary club the BSA currently says it is).

 

But if I recall correctly, the cub pack where Seattle wants to start up an AHG unit, is chartered through a Catholic Church/private Catholic school. So although I, too, don't care much for Seattle's approach, I'm of the opinion that the local option is the best fix here. In any event, it seems unlikely that the two groups could be too closely blended because they'll have different organizational requirements and needs. So I think it will be a self-limiting effort, in the end.

 

 

Brew, you don't seem to understand my point. First, BSA is not a Judeo-Christian organization so I don't see what that has to do with much of anything. Second, the BSA invites criticism by holding contradictory positions. This is a shame, but nobody outside the BSA is doing it TO the BSA. BSA national policy makers are doing it to the entire organization, and as a member of that organization, I believe I have a right (maybe an obligation) to point this out. In this instance, unfortunately, the BSA simply reaps what it sows. The good news here is, the BSA can fix this by getting rid of their contradictory stances.

[NJCubScouter]

Basementdweller, I think you are expressing what I believe is a common fallacy these days: That if someone (say me) is opposed to something, or outraged by something, or an activist about something, that they have to be opposed, or outraged, or an activist, about everything. Life doesn't work that way. We are all allowed to choose our own battles and to decide what is worth worrying about, or talking about, or fighting about, and how much, or not at all.

 

As for the American Heritage Girls, I have never seen one. I have never heard of an AGH unit in my area. Nobody in my troop has ever proposed getting involved with the AGH. If it ever came up in a committee meeting, I would speak against it, because AHG's declaration of faith is limited to one particular religion. (The daughters of the parents on our committee are generally in the Girl Scouts (and/or Venturing) anyway, and I believe one of our committee members is a GS troop leader. I have never heard any complaints about the GS from any of them. My daughters were Girl Scouts too.)

 

So I really have nothing to do with the AHG. I think this is the first thread about them where I have even said anything. On the other hand, I have been a member of the BSA for going on 25 years, members of my family have been in the BSA for 74 years, and I am an adult leader in the BSA. So yes, I care about the BSA, and I don't really care about the AHG, because even though someone somewhere might be trying to "marry" the two (so to speak), it's not happening where I can see it or do anything about it.

 

So I don't think it's necessary for me to tell others in this forum whether I think their units should be getting involved with the AHG. In all cases where people have spoken about their efforts to get the BSA and AHG to coordinate activities, they are doing so on their own local level, and as far as I know, all of those people disagree with me on the BSA's exclusion of gay people and most likely on other issues anyway, so what's the point, really? You and Bando can fight the good fight in this forum, and if the issue ever comes up in my "real life", I will act accordingly.

[Bando]

Lisabob, I think that's the best summation of the BSA membership policy debate I've ever seen, anywhere at any time. Well done, and thank you.

 

Really, a good string of posts all around. And I agree with NJCubScouter's approach as well, I don't really have much more energy to keep debating this, and really it has nothing to do with my local experience. Yet. We'll see where that goes. I'm in information-gathering mode so I'll be prepared if that moment comes. And I hope it never does, because our very strong BSA units get along just fine here with their equally strong GSUSA counterparts, including a very successful, longstanding Venture Crew that draws from both. There's nothing broken to be fixed in my neck of the woods. And even if there was something broken, I don't see AHG as a valid group that can work with the BSA to fix it.

[cchoat]

Lisabob posted:

 

"...yet sleep-around-Sam who cheats on his wife and gets divorced 8 times and fails to pay child support, all while running a grow op, is considered a potentially fine leader under national BSA policy, so long as he's hetero and a theist."

 

Good point. I can't speak for any other Pack\Troop\Post\team out there, but I can say that "Sam" wouldn't be a leader in our unit. The troop committee would not consider him a good role model, and reject his application.

 

Isn't that why the CO and unit committee appoint unit leaders, not National?

 

 

[Basementdweller]

So seattle are you going to permit divorcee's to be leaders

 

 

> An AHG member is called to live a life of holiness,

> being pure of heart, mind, word and deed, reserving

> sexual activity for the sanctity of marriage;

> marriage being a lifelong commitment before God

> between a man and a woman.

 

If not your leadership pool has shrank by, is it 60% now???????

 

Every single one of my cub leaders has been divorced at least one.

 

None of the troop leadership....

 

Wait a minute, is that a trend????

 

 

(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[SeattlePioneer]

Sure.