BSA post LDS

[Lisabob]

There are also plenty of liberal Catholics out there.

 

And SP, you really would benefit from halting your assumption that all liberals hate scouting. While currently in many parts of the country, conservatives probably outnumber liberals in scouting leadership circles, I certainly know plenty of liberals who love scouting, but who think the rather recent (2000) Dale decision was a poor choice for the scouting organization that they have loved, and been part of, for a long time. I am one of those.

 

Assuming the worst of your fellow scouters ("you're a liberal! you hate scouting!") is, at best, counterproductive and sort of childish.

[Tampa Turtle]

Hmmm my $0.2 if gay adults join.

 

(1) LDS is organized enough and independent enough to spin off on it's own.

 

(2) Catholic Units will be split. A top-down directive against scouting would kill some C.O.'s. I do not think the Catholic Church could organize it's own competitive organization. They might try.

 

(3) United Methodist Churches. No blanket order either way but as a "big tent" denomination some C.O.'s would lose support especially in conservative areas. I think a minor net loss.

 

(4) Schools. Greater support. This may lower some barriers for establishing some units. This would be the big upside.

 

(5) General membership. I see a lot of conservative folks walking. Some new folks would join because they no longer have a moral objection but a lot less than you might think--how many objecting have kids of the proper age and still want the hassle and expense. There are other aspects to the program--uniforms, patriotism, quasi-military patrols that folks still have problems with. I see a sharp dip with some modest improvement afterwards.

 

This all a WAG but it "feels" like such a move would lead to a 30-40% membership drop-off for a while and then a recovery. I think BSA could survive but would still be at least 24% smaller.

 

So if you are National what do you do? How will this affect the money? Do you just re-tool the whole thing and make like GSUSA or maybe Venturing. Might as well let in girls at same time!

 

If you are focused on numbers that is the direction we are headed. If not now but its coming.

 

If you are focused on the traditional program than it is a different argument.

 

I see this played out in churches all the time. Church A and B both are losing membership. Church A "lowers the requirements" attracts some new folks, grows, but really is hard to sustain. Church B has higher entry requirements (participation, commitment)focuses on the program, builds more slowly but grows and is more stable. I would argue that Church B will over time grow Church A. But it is a hard sell.

 

I think BSA wants to be Church B but acts like Church A. It offends the group that doesn't like the exclusivity but keeps lowering standards (outdoor adventure) and turns off the "core folks" who thought they were getting Church B. Some of the negative aspects of both worlds.

 

If I was a betting man...I'd say local option within 10 years. But I am thinking (typing) out loud.

 

YIS

 

 

[Peregrinator]

There are also plenty of liberal Catholics out there.

 

Ummm, yes, I am familiar with that phenomenon. (There are liberal Mormons too.) On the whole I think parishes are less "liberal" than some individual Catholics might be (which is why certain parishes get a reputation for liberalism ... liberal Catholics tend to cluster there).

[Tampa Turtle]

In my experience in dealing with Catholic and Methodist churches (as well as few Jewish congregations)many middle and older aged clergy seem to be more "liberal" then there congregations. Some of the younger folks seem more conservative but not on all the traditional issues. So ya never know. In a Catholic Parish is the Arch Bishop breathing down your neck on this issue and how do the movers and shakers in your congregation feel about it. Will they pull donations? I've seen Priests "imposed" upon some parishes and others where there was tremendous pressure to remove an unpopular one. So that is why I expected a rather ragged response.

 

I wouldn't really think the RC church would "ban" membership; I don't think they have done that is Europe have they?

 

 

[Basementdweller]

You are familiar with the term Cafeteria Catholic

 

So how many Catholic youth have sex before marriage???? I bet most of them

 

So how many Catholics use Birth Control???? I bet most of them

 

So how many Catholics have gay friends???? Some of them

 

So how many Catholics Do the fish on Friday thing during lent????? some of them

 

 

 

While I am sure there are some very devote and strict Catholics, they certainly are not the majority...

 

Of course these are the same folks that would turn in a Lesbian Tiger Cub mom and get her thrown out of scouting

 

[scoutingagain]

The Northern Star Council has apparently had an inclusive membership policy for the better part of a decade. How many LDS and Catholic COs have left that council?

 

SA

 

 

[Peregrinator]

(2) Catholic Units will be split. A top-down directive against scouting would kill some C.O.'s. I do not think the Catholic Church could organize it's own competitive organization. They might try.

 

A top-down directive would be very unlikely. As far as competitive organizations go, there are already such organizations in Europe (UIGSE-FSE) and South America (CADISCA). But a different situation prevails there or, should I say, prevailed there. The countries that are core members of those organizations are historically Catholic countries (e.g. France, Italy, Argentina).

[Peregrinator]

I wouldn't really think the RC church would "ban" membership; I don't think they have done that is Europe have they?

 

No, but then in Europe scouting is often split along religious lines. For example, in France, the Scouts de France, the Unitary Scouts of France, and the Scouts d'Europe are all Catholic. Granted, scouting in France is very fragmented ... but there are also organizations for Protestants, Jews, and Muslims.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_and_Guiding_in_France

 

Italy is similar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_and_Guiding_in_Italy

[AZMike]

I'm not sure on the stats, but at least a fair number of COs in Catholic churches are actually under the Knights of Columbus, who tend to be very orthodox in their support of the teachings of the Pope.

 

Yes, yes, yes, some Catholics use contraception, some Catholics have sex before marriage, some Catholic have abortions. Some Catholics also steal, some Catholics also lie, some Catholics also commit murder. The Church on Earth is a health club for sinners, not a museum for Saints. The Church doesn't alter its teachings based on a popularity poll or what "some" or "most" of its members do.

 

As many commentators have noted, the older generation of priests and deacons and religious sisters and nuns, who came up in the 1960s and 1970s and tend to be more socially liberal, are getting older and being replaced by the new generation, who are overwhelmingly orthodox and obedient to the traditional teachings of the Church. They (already) are emphasizing the Church's views on issues like same-sex attraction and contraception as they assume leadership and teaching roles in catechesis and parochial schools and Catholic universities. We are seeing a strong trend in the reversal to orthodoxy from the young, so I wouldn't count on support for a gay-friendly BSA in the next 10 years from Catholic COs.(This message has been edited by AZMike)

[moosetracker]

I thought the RC church was currently hard pressed to find anyone who wanted to be a priest or a nun? The majority of them are aging out, and not enough to replace them..

[Peregrinator]

I'm not sure on the stats, but at least a fair number of COs in Catholic churches are actually under the Knights of Columbus, who tend to be very orthodox in their support of the teachings of the Pope.

 

Interesting ... worth noting that the Knights of Columbus have a youth program, the Columbian Squires. I don't know much about them, but it would seem that some of what they do overlaps with scouting (IOW, the KOC already has the groundwork laid for starting its own alternative scouting program).

[Peregrinator]

I thought the RC church was currently hard pressed to find anyone who wanted to be a priest or a nun? The majority of them are aging out, and not enough to replace them.

 

Depends on the order/diocese. The liberal orders of religious are definitely dying out. The more conservative/traditional ones are not thriving, but are growing -- problem is that in some cases they started from scratch and so are very small. There will come a time when demand exceeds supply, and those will be tough times for the Church.

[moosetracker]

OK.. Did some investigation. You are right, numbers are increasing due to immigrants, who I suppose would tend to be more conservative until their youth get zapped by the American culture.

[DeanRx]

BSA post LDS... Not soon enough was my first reaction!

 

Look my beef with the LDS is the fact that THEY already are practicing a local option with the blessing of BSA national. They have adjustments to program, adjustments to leader requirements (all male), they only go to summer cmap in group blocks, etc...

 

Whats good for them should be good for everyone else. period.

 

However, that's not the case because BSA make the willing decision in the 1980's to be kidnapped by the LDS (and to a lesser extent the RC church) to hold on to "ideals" that at the time the majority of society endorsed. Remember Regan's AIDS is a plauge and no federal funding for research, etc...

 

Well, things have shifted in societies view, but the doctrine (not surprisingly) of the LDS and RC has remainded steadfast. The question is HOW does BSA unlock itself from its controlling CO's (they control FOS / donations, program policy, and to a certain extent national exec. boards).

 

I don't know the history, but I bet BSA has been through this before...

 

Back in the 1940-50's, most units were segregated not just by religious lines, but also ethnic ones. Can you imagine the worry and hand-wringing that went on by the adults at the time is black, white, and hispanic kids were expected to be in the same units ?!?!? BSA weathered that storm and adapted to changing social norms in the 1960-1970's... not reason to think its any different today.

 

The sooner BSA removes barriers to ALL youth participation, the sooner it will see itself flourish instead of wither. I say at a minimum local option inclusive.

 

Inclusive for gays, atheists, and FEMALES!

 

Quite frankly, our program is better and more rigorous than GSUSA. We let females in, we can put GSUSA out of business in less than a decade! My sister wanted in when we were youth and had to settle for sewing and selling thin mints. I know of 4 girls in my cul-de-sac who ALL want to go on scout outings with my son and his friends in the neighborhood (all of them shun Girl Scouts b/c its too "wimpy" - their word, not mine). A couple participate in Indian Guides and LOVE it, but say they would really like a better advancement system and one that carries the weight of the BSA program to the outside world. No one cares if you put "highest Indian Guide rank" on a college application. No one knows what the hell it is! You put down that you're an Eagle scout, the general public knows what that means... its brand recognition.

 

Can you imagine the race to be the first female Eagle? What a PR bonanza for BSA! Get Gabby Giffords or Condie Rice to present the first batch of Eagles to the girls that earn them. From page grade A PR for BSA.

 

The same would be noted for the 1st openly gay Eagle. Get the Star Trek guy to present it to the youth. Its would mean a LOT to those who care about such things and would go a LONG way towards burying the hatchet on years of BSA prejudice.

 

Hope I see the day while I'm still an active scouter... at a minimum, I bet my son will see it happen in his lifetime. It would be a kick if my son had daughters and I could see them enjoy the challenges of scouting with their father the same way he and I enjoy them now.

[perdidochas]

DeanRx,

 

Reagan's admin sponsored AIDS research. It went from from $44 million in 1983 to $103 million, $205 million, $508 million, $922 million, and then $1.6 billion in 1988.

 

 

 

 

Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2011/03/24/joy-behar-lies-about-reagans-aids-record-during-her-hln-elizabeth-taylor#ixzz21knGF5Gw