CalicoPenn Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 "This new organization y'all are licking your chops over - a Boy Scouts with girls and atheists and no reference to God in the Pledge of Allegiance and openly gay Scouters and kids announcing their sexual preference, and no pesky Mormons or Evangelicals or orthodox Jews or orthodox Catholics (or Orthodox Catholics, for that matter), or boys who want to be in a group that is just male for just a few times a month - sounds pretty interesting." Well, you almost got it right... What those of us that oppose the stated policy prefer is the "Local Option" at the Chartered Organization Level. Scouts with Boys, Girls, Religious, Non-religious (I'm not going to use the word athiest because even that's not inclusive - what about agnostics, and people that are spiritual but don't necessarily believe in God who aren't athiests, and people who don't identify with the athiests but are athiests in practice), straights and gays. Where an individual's conscience dictates whether he says "To God" in the oath or "under God" in the pledge or remains silent while others say it (because we're reverent, we respect other peoples beliefs, right?), where Mormon, Evangelical Christian, Catholics and Orthodox/Conservative Jews can have units that are for boys and men only that exclude folks not of their religion and can exclude folks that are gay while the neighboring unit sponsored by a Unitarian church or a community organization can have a unit that welcomes everyone regardless of creed, race, religion, gender or orientation and where familes have the right to join the local Scout unit that best fits their views. I know that the BSA has had it's right to freedom of association confirmed but I believe that they should subrogate their right to their members right of freedom of association - allow the members to decide who they wish to associate with at the local (Unit) level and limit national's policies on association to criminal acts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eolesen Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Spinning into a new thread to discuss the Charter...(This message has been edited by eolesen) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattlePioneer Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 > We'll just get rid of the Scout Oath and Law and let people make up their own ideals, because we don't want to be JUDGMENTAL. Get rid of those BB guns in Cub Scouts and rifles at Scout camp, because we don't want to encourage the use of weapons. We'll have vegetarian meals at Scout camps because eating animals is not politically correct. We can go on and on refining Scouting until it meets all the ideals of modern liberalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadenP Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 SP You really need to get over yourself already. You speak for very few, if any, of the scouters in the BSA. Your constant politicizing in every thread and on every topic is not only sad but irritating as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Yah, well, I expect if LDS left our accident rate would go down quite a bit. Seriously, though, I don't think there's any reason to believe the BSA wouldn't proceed in exactly da same way as the other organizations that opposed homosexuality for ethical reasons did when they switched. Yeh start massive conflict within the community. Yeh have individuals leave. Yeh have lots of individuals transfer to congregations / units that support their viewpoint. Yeh have many congregations consider seceding and da formation of smaller rival organizations. Yeh substantially increase your year over year loss of membership, not just from da issue but from the conflict. In short, yeh get the sort of adult drama that typically causes troops to implode played out on a national scale. I'm with AZMike, eh? It's much better for everybody and a much better demonstration of neighborliness and citizenship just to set up a competitor organization that is as inclusive as yeh want. Compete in da free market of ideas. If your ideas and commitment are better, then you'll out-compete the BSA and become da larger organization and can apply for BSA's WOSM slot. Beavah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanRx Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 That's a nice thought Beavah, but there's a slight problem with it... You start your own organization Scouting USA or such. Fine. Problem is, you are LOCKED OUT of all program materials, ALL uniform standards, ALL ranks in use by BSA to include the Eagle. BSA owns copyright on ALL of those things. Not to mention the fact BSA would likey refuse to allow use of BSA camps (even if you paid for them) for a competiting organization. Local option is just asking for the same consideration for local units that want inclusion (whatever that inclusion may be - gay, atheist, female, or all three or a combo of them) as is already afforded to LDS units. As a lawyer, you have to see the irony of a "private" organization that allows for one set of adjusted standards (LDS units), yet refuses to allow for an opposing set of standards in the same manner. All the while seeking (and getting) both public and private donations to fund its activities. If its OK for LDS to tweek it to their needs, then other units should be allowed to tweek it to their needs. No one is saying take "god" out of the picture. You can still have a scout law that states "reverent" or replace it with spiritual, or whatever term fits the local unit's intent without changing the whole program. I don't understand why folks see it as an either / or situation, when set up correctly, it these different types of units can co-exist at the same time. Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 >>You start your own organization Scouting USA or such. Fine. Problem is, you are LOCKED OUT of all program materials, ALL uniform standards, ALL ranks in use by BSA to include the Eagle. BSA owns copyright on ALL of those things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Dean says: I don't understand why folks see it as an either / or situation, when set up correctly, it these different types of units can co-exist at the same time. Of course they can. And they will. The only real question is how much damage the BSA will succeed in doing to itself in the interim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Eagledad says: ...but I don't know much about them accept their leaders on this forum come off angry. I don't think any organization, or point of view, has a monopoly on anger as expressed in this forum. There's quite a lot of it to go around. None on my part, of course. I am always cheerful and happy-go-lucky... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bacchus Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 DeanRX: "As a lawyer, you have to see the irony of a "private" organization that allows for one set of adjusted standards (LDS units), yet refuses to allow for an opposing set of standards in the same manner. All the while seeking (and getting) both public and private donations to fund its activities" It sounds like you are proposing allowing one set of adjusted standards (practicing gays and atheists), yet refusing to allow for an opposing set of standards in the same manner. All the while seeking (and getting) both public and private donations (including the bulk of the donations from LDS) to fund its activities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 >>I don't think any organization, or point of view, has a monopoly on anger as expressed in this forum. There's quite a lot of it to go around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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