BS-87 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I'm perfectly willing to call being fat and smoking a human failing. But those are things even a kid can say is wrong. I will not call being homosexual a human failing like you do, because it is not. However, because of the nature of the issue, it cannot be tolerated in the Scouting atmosphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrinator Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I do find it interesting that a group that claims to espouse traditional scouting and even has Baden-Powell in its name would be inclusive where atheism is concerned. B-P himself was opposed to atheism. I also doubt he would have been supportive of co-ed units which the BPSA supports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 So kids are born from birth with the knowledge that smoking and being fat is bad for ya????/ No adults tell them it is bad for them.... Went rounds with a new teacher at my daughters school who was teaching the kids that Meat is murder and they should not eat animals or anything with a face..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSA24 Posted July 25, 2012 Author Share Posted July 25, 2012 > So BSA which are ya gay or an atheist? Neither. Happily married for many decades. Two grown boys. Not a Christian, but definitely not an atheist. My beef is that I wear the uniform, and I would like to be proud to do so and not believe that dummies are ruining my reputation by association with their goofy ideas. I also find it absurd that all day long in my company the gay and atheist people we have, which are not many, but are there, are just as trustworthy, helpful, and loyal as anyone else, and my boys grow up to see that, but now ask me why we keep them out of the scouts since they seem to be decent folks. I like consistency. I like for things to make sense. It makes no sense to say that gay people are bad and smokers are good. It makes no sense to say that atheists teach the wrong things and but kids don't learn it is OK to be fat from fat scoutmasters. I'm a scouter who is registered and I get an opinion. My opinion is we look stupid. We look stupid to me, and we look stupid to a lot of America. And that's sad, because being in BSA used to be an honor, but now it is a political statement that I must be a Republican - something I would never be. We're all tarnished, imperfect, heavily flawed creatures. I don't see why we turn our noses up at some and draw this derision upon us. I don't like standing outside the grocery store selling popcorn and having people tell my boys they do not support us because we are bigots. One of my friends runs a non-BSA unit out of a local center, and they were fundraising and got lumped in with BSA by the people they were fundraising from. "I don't donate to bigots!" They were having to explain that they are not bigoted boy scouts, but other kinds of scouts. Our reputation is so badly damaged it is rubbing off on other organizations. The Girl Scouts have none of this silly policies, and they get complaint letters and news articles including them in condemnations of us just because people don't know better. The value of my eagle award accomplishment, and of all boy scouts who accomplish it, is reduced if the reputation of our organization is one of bigotry instead of outdoorsmanship. When most of America is screaming that we don't represent them, that's a problem. We can't lead on this issue. We have to follow. Or we are in danger of one day being in old photographs as something that used to exist like Hitler Youth which we thought was a good idea at the time, but now is viewed as hateful. Look at old pictures of people protesting integration in the 1960's. They look like idiots now. Now imagine 40 years from now. That's us. Reviled by all. (This message has been edited by BSA24) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSA24 Posted July 25, 2012 Author Share Posted July 25, 2012 > I do find it interesting that a group > that claims to espouse traditional scouting > and even has Baden-Powell in its name would > be inclusive where atheism is concerned. > B-P himself was opposed to atheism. I also > doubt he would have been supportive of co-ed > units which the BPSA supports. I doubt he wanted racially integrated units, either. I'm pretty sure he would have protested female leaders. I doubt he would have wanted a Chess merit badge, or even a Wood Badge for the 21st Century. I don't think anyone cares what he would have liked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Ah so this is just whining on the internet with no action or substance plan..... Ya want to make a statement. Peel that old Eagle patch off the uniform......Fly to dallas.....Call the local Fox news agency and tell them since the BSA doesn't let gays in your going to Resign as an Eagle and you will met them in front of National Scout headquarters with the purpose of personally turning in your Award and a personal letter...... Ya get a number of adult scouters to do it and it makes the national news.....Ya might see some change.... Till then it is just a bunch of scouters whining around the virtual campfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentinel947 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I think this debate has ended personally. I don't think ANYBODY on this forum can offer a new viewpoint, and it's getting to the point where people are getting personally insulted over things. There isn't anything to be gained by continuing this debate. Perhaps in a few years when the new guys take over, we should have this conversation again, until then, we'd be better off using our time, energy and passion more constructively. Yours in Scouting, Sentinel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Basementdweller - you don't get it. Some of us feel that we are a part of the BSA as much as others and we act in a Scout like manner - when we see injustice we try to remedy the situation. Walking away is not a solution in our eyes. I will not call being homosexual a human failing like you do, because it is not. However, because of the nature of the issue, it cannot be tolerated in the Scouting atmosphere. I don't understand the above. Why can't it be tolerated in a Scouting atmosphere. I can "be" heterosexual in a Scouting environment, but no, I should not be fornicating with the opposite sex in a Scouting atmosphere. Same goes for homosexuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 acco I get it....... It is easy to whine on the internet........Your safe at home, nearly anonymous, comfortable, the idea is noble enough, seems harmless....... Start this conversation at round table.........Stand up and ask for a discussion about openly gay folks being admitted...... In my best whiney voice "Oh I want change just so long as it doesn't jeopardize my membership, personal comfort, and god forbid don't make it an inconvenience".... On line surveys are worthless.....Make someone put their signature on a piece of paper..... I challenge all you folks who are advocating openly gay folks in the BSA to Call a news crew go to your local council office and turn in your Eagle..... Better yet get a group to go to the national office and do it..... BTW this entire argument is obsolete, there are many gay members in scouting......But of course it just takes one self righteous bible thumper to end it...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrinator Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I doubt he wanted racially integrated units, either. I've not seen any evidence that he supported racial segregation in scout units. He did tolerate it in places like South Africa where he had no power to enforce it, but in general I think he did support integration. Perhaps you ought to check before you tar our Founder's reputation. I'm pretty sure he would have protested female leaders. Good for him! I doubt he would have wanted a Chess merit badge, or even a Wood Badge for the 21st Century. I don't think anyone cares what he would have liked. I'm not referring to the BSA, but the BPSA. I know that scouting has gotten away from Baden-Powell's ideals, but ISTM that an organization that names itself after Baden-Powell ought to care about that he wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortridge Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 "Peel that old Eagle patch off the uniform......Fly to dallas.....Call the local Fox news agency and tell them since the BSA doesn't let gays in your going to Resign as an Eagle and you will met them in front of National Scout headquarters with the purpose of personally turning in your Award and a personal letter...... "Ya get a number of adult scouters to do it and it makes the national news.....Ya might see some change.... Till then it is just a bunch of scouters whining around the virtual campfire." Oh, like this? http://www.npr.org/2012/07/25/157371035/eagle-scout-returns-badge-in-protest?device=iphone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal_Crawford Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Peregrinator: I am old enough to remember when scout camps in our council (National Capital Area) were segregated. I have to assume that units were segregated as well since an integrated unit would not have been able to go to camp. The old camps were closed and consolidated at Goshen Scout Reservation in the mid 1960s. The BSA tolerated integration, at least in the South. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewmeister Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 The reason that the BSA has backed itself into a corner on this issue is that it has forgotten the adage of "hate the sin, love the sinner." None of us are perfect. We smoke, we drink, we lie, we cheat, we do things behind closed doors that we wouldn't want others to know. It is the imperfection of humanity. And, like it or not, the BSA values are that gay behavior is not morally straight. We are not alone in that judgment. However, the BSA's response all along should have been to prohibit the excercise of that behavior around youth, just as it does with smoking and alcohol. Obesity?...not quite sure how to handle that one. Perhaps even more fundamentally, sexual behavior of any type has no place in a youth organization. Unfortunately at this point I don't see a way where the BSA could revise its policy in any way without it coming across as "gay is OK," and that will be disastrous to our membership because of the people it will drive away, and I don't for a second believe there's a big bubble of people waiting to be scouts and leaders "if only." I believe proponents of this change, even in these forums, know this as I have stated elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBob Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Catch 22: Anyone who doesn't have "impure thoughts glancing at the bikini adds on Scouter" is probably gay... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisabob Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Eh. Or female. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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