BSA should learn from its own history

[Peregrinator]

So Peregrinator, are you suggesting that at recruiting night, pack leaders inquire into the sexual orientations of each parent who shows up with a boy who is eager to join the pack? Umm, no, I'm not going there.

 

Not sure how you got that from my post. I simply pointed out that if a pack allows a lesbian to be a leader within the group, and she is later forced out by the BSA, that it is the fault of the pack for allowing it in the first place in contravention to the BSA's rules. The BSA's rules on the matter are certainly no mystery.

[moosetracker]

And the return question to you is... How is your unit at fault when appointing a person, if they don't volunteer the information? If later on you have a volunteer who has a proven record of being a wonderful adult leader, and you find something out through the rumor mill. Why would your unit fire them over something that doesn't interfer with their great leadership skills. Unless you are from a ultra-conservative prejudicial unit most groups will continue to have confidence in this fantastic person.

[Horizon]

AZMIke - parent is driving this, but the boy was there for the discussion.

[Peregrinator]

How is your unit at fault when appointing a person, if they don't volunteer the information?

 

If she didn't volunteer the information, knowing what the BSA's policy is, then she is at fault. I would find it unlikely that someone volunteering as a scout leader would be ignorant of the policy considering how it has been trumpeted in the media. If she was ignorant when she was appointed, and later found out what the policy was, then the honorable thing would have been for her to resign. Why on earth would a unit under BSA charter want a leader who disregards BSA policy? If one can disregard that policy, then one can disregard any policy.

[moosetracker]

If I had a wonderful volunteer, and he/she was terrific, then found something out.. Basically, it is not me who would have a problem with it, so I would do nothing to rock the boat.. If by some other way the Council found out (not by me), went out on their little witch hunt, well then they can take the heat of if from the news media and the parents in the unit..

 

I would not lift a finger to do their prejudicial, ignorant witch hunt for them.

 

You might turn your brother in if he committed a murder.. But would you turn your brother in because he did 45mph in a 35mph zone?(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[Lisabob]

Peregrinator, are you familiar with how most cub scout recruiting nights go? Here's my experience.

 

1. Flyers go out through the local school, local civic groups, local churches, etc. Ads in local paper/radio/whatever. Recruiting booths set up at back to school night, movie in the park night, and so on.

2. Round Up night takes place, often in the local school cafeteria or gym. Hordes of folks, many unknown to you, show up with a boy in tow who wants to be a CUB SCOUT!!!! (excitement!!!)

3. Boys go play some games while parents/grandparents/uncles/somebody fill out paperwork, turn in money, find out about uniforms, books, den meetings, upcoming pack events, etc.

4. Everybody comes back together, new cubs are welcomed a silly song or something is sung, and folks part ways til the next meeting.

 

Oh, and it may be that if one age group is large, the parents/whoever for that age group are all huddled together and told " you need to select a leader from among your numbers so that your boys can have a den. Let us know who you pick and we'll help you get started."

 

That's how it tends to go. Where, in there, should I check for the type of sex people like to engage in? At what point ought I to ask whether people's significant others have the opposite genitalia?

 

 

Now go down the road a little ways. The kids had a great year in their Tiger den. Lots of fun. A parent seems like the natural choice for Wolf den leader. Is this the point at which I should inquire about the parent's sexual preferences?

 

Because, I assure you, a great many parents neither know nor particularly care for the minutia of BSA policy, unless the pack has been trumpeting it from the rooftops - and most pack leaders I know would rather talk about just about anything else, except that, with their unit's parents. And as a den or pack leader, typically the last worry on my mind is who the kids' parents are sleeping with at night.

 

Edited to add: I've never attended a cub round up, or seen a recruiting flyer, that indicated "no homos allowed." Have you? In this day and age, it is actually the default assumption in most places that sexual orientation is not a bar to entry anymore. So yeah, it really is possible that LGBT parents and other leaders might not think twice about their sexual orientation before joining, or volunteering.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

[SeattlePioneer]

1. Ideally you check the references and get to know new people before appointing them as leaders.

 

 

2. If a person is discovered to have personality characteristics that make them an unacceptable BSA leader, you deal with that issue when it's discovered or apparent.

 

 

[Fehler]

Unless a policy is spelled out on either the Adult Leader Application or the Cub Scout Leader Book, I will ignore it. If they expect me to be their cop and gatekeeper, they need to tell me what position I'm enforcing for them. I don't cotton to press releases.

[Lisabob]

Seattle, I agree that the leadership recruitment method I outlined isn't "ideal." Yet, it happens a lot. Don't tell me you've never seen a cub pack tell a group of brand new parents "hey, one of you needs to be DL or you won't have a den!" Heck, that's standard for Tiger dens practically everywhere.

 

But suppose I check references and get to know Johnny's mom. When I check her references, should I be asking them what kind of sex she prefers? As I get to know her via cub den meetings, at what point might I reasonably inquire whether she's a lesbian? Supposing it is Johnny's dad we're talking about, when exactly should I ask if he's married to another dude? Is the fact that I might not have met their significant other enough to raise suspicion? Do you have a standard hetero check form that I could use?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[shortridge]

"If she didn't volunteer the information, knowing what the BSA's policy is, then she is at fault."

 

How does she - or do we - know what the BSA's policy is?

 

As established in a previous thread - http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=327100&p=1 - there is no rule or guidance in any official publication, Handbook, training material, leader's guide or what-have-you.

 

If we pay attention to the news, then we know through a secondary source. But there's no direction about this policy to the volunteer leadership responsible for enforcing it.

[qwazse]

I could see the UoS course now: "Gaydar Operations."

 

Horizon, I'm sorry my word choice got up your craw. There are reasons for it, which I won't belabor here. Suffice it to say that there's trouble on both sides of the issue.

 

Frankly, there will never be an operations manual on how to screen your parents for leadership roles. There's the application, reference checks, and that's it. I think we owe it to our fellow leaders to let them know what they may be up against as we learn of any issues that may disqualify them. We need to decide how we would act, and be honest and up front about that. But I certainly am not about to discuss with anyone besides my COR any standard operation procedure. As much as I don't like years-after-the-fact calls from the SE, I hate more adding to the collection of unwritten rules folks expect us to follow.

[CalicoPenn]

"My question is, where is da liberal version of John McCain, stepping forward to take his fellow Democrat to task for a response and position which is utterly shameful?"

 

Well Beavah, do you have any examples of where you might find such a response as lacking or are we going to have to go down a path of false-equivalency and fake outrage to find something? I recall an awful lot of Democrats taking Bill Clinton to task for his dealings with a certain intern. I recall a number of Democrats publicly denouncing the actions of Anthony Weiner. I also recall the "outrage" over some words that Dick Durbin had said, and the "outrage" over the lack of outrage from the Democratic side which I chalk up to Democrats being able to comprehend what they hear and read since what he actually said and what the "outraged" reported he said was two different things.

 

Is it unfair for Chick-Fil-A to be branded with what the owner says? Maybe - but he is the public face of Chick-Fil-A, and the reports are that Chick-Fil-A, the company itself, has also made donations to anti-gay marriage group. Whether meant to be a personal statement or not, there are certain people who make personal statements that will always be associated with their business or organization, whether it was meant to do so or not - and despite any disclaimers that might be announced. Had Colonel Sanders said he personally disliked blacks, most people wouldn't be able to separate that from KFC, regardless of denials by KFC. If Bill Gates were to state today that Pakistani Software Engineers are inferior, not one would separate that out from Microsoft.

 

Rule of Business #1: Don't irritate your potential customer base, regardless of your own personal feelings. You, of course, have a right to free speech - just don't be surprised if other people exercise their right of free speech in response. Menino isn't the first mayor to stand toe-to-toe with a corporation over points of view - it took Walmart promising to pay prevailing wages in Chicago in order to get a Walmart in town without a union after going toe-to-toe with Daley the 2nd.

[Peregrinator]

What did the owner say that was so offensive? By the way, here is what he actually said, not what he was widely quoted as saying:

http://www.getreligion.org/2012/07/wheres-the-beef-what-the-chick-fil-a-boss-really-said/

[CalicoPenn]

"I could see the UoS course now: "Gaydar Operations.""

 

Of course that would mean violating the policy to allow a gay leader since everyone knows that straight people can barely tell what shirt matches what pants without Garanimals on them let alone have a decent gaydar.

 

 

"If a person is discovered to have personality characteristics that make them an unacceptable BSA leader, you deal with that issue when it's discovered or apparent."

 

In my world, people whose personalitys allow them to think discrimination against other people is ok and/or that "tea party" politics is goos are unacceptable BSA leaders.

 

 

[Mr. Boyce]

I'm "incorrect" and likely to be hauled away for "reeducation" for saying this, BUT

 

I really DO feel homosexuality is aberrant behavior and should not be encouraged.

 

I really DO believe the statistics which show that homosexual adults are more likely to commit pedophilia.

 

I really DO believe sex is a matter for adults and not children; the organization should not be in the business of dealing with this issue, which is a real prerogative of parents; a family subject.

 

People can disagree with me all they like. It's okay. People disagree at times.