Australian Girl Guides drop reference to Queen and god in pledge

[BadenP]

 

BSA24 & Barry

 

While interesting debate it really has nothing to do with the topic at hand, Aus. Girl Guides.

[moosetracker]

I would venture to guess you are both right. The cub scout program on the outside seems simple, but if you look at the detail in each rank it makes my head spin, I can't imagine what new parents getting into program think..

 

The lack of being politically correct also hurts.. The loss of schools supporting units caused a definate hit..

 

So did other things not related to either..

 

But, Scouts Canada is doing great, as is the Scouting program in England(BBS).. Both are on an upward spiral rather then still sinking into oblivian.. It would be a good idea to look at both their programs to find out what they are doing right..

 

Sure both took immediate hits when it happened from those who couldn't accept change, while those who could care less, still could care less (according to some on this board, that is most of our scouts).. Don't know about Scouts Canada, but when the BBS did it, it meant it was added to the full program in one big swoop. BSA has the ability to soften this blow by simply making it the decision of local units.. So we will keep those who are fine with being able to control their little piece of the pie to keep homosexuals out.. We will only loose those who have to feel they have full control over the whole BSA program.

 

Also, although always being anti-atheist.. It was not so for the homosexual clause. It was a local option up until the early 1990's when it was added. Had they left it local option, they would have sailed through the whole polarization without a scratch. But they chose a side, and the wrong side at that, the one that in 1990 was more popular, but now is quickly changing to now being of equal balance, soon to become the unpopular choice.. But, BSA did fine in the 1920 through the 1980's with no discriminating policy, it will take a hit removing the policy, but it never should have been added in the first place.

 

In the meantime, there are alot of other changes that England & Canada have done that should also be looked at and analyzed to see if it would work here also. Because it is not as simple as one thing will fix it..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[Eagledad]

>>Sure both took immediate hits when it happened from those who couldn't accept change>BSA has the ability to soften this blow by simply making it the decision of local units..

[moosetracker]

Doing nothing would have been not making up this ridiculous rule in the 1990's..

 

Doing nothing, means continual drops in numbers as the country goes to 80% being afraid on homosexuals in the 1990 to today it being 50/50, to tomorrow it swinging to 80% in favor of equal rights..

 

Even Republican politician are starting to acknowledge they picked the wrong side of the fight, some have voiced it, others don't want to discuss the issue.

 

It may not have helped us keep the public school support as that is due to denying atheist also.. But, it sure did nothing to help it.

 

Worry about your own church, not the other denomination down the street.. Worry about your own scout unit, not the scout unit down the street..

 

As I stated We will only loose those who have to feel they have full control over the whole BSA program (rather then simply concentrating on their own program).(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

moosetracker writes:

Also, although always being anti-atheist.. It was not so for the homosexual clause. It was a local option up until the early 1990's when it was added. Had they left it local option, they would have sailed through the whole polarization without a scratch.

 

No, they still would have lost public schools and other government chartering partners due to religious discrimination.

[moosetracker]

Merlin - when I said that, I was not talking about the schools, or the atheists. Simply the homosexual rule that was added in 1990, that then became a polarized topic which they are now moving to the loosing side of as it moves out of 50/50 and into equal rights for..

 

Had they not created the rule, left it as a local option, they would not have to find a way to back away from the rule now.. The conservatives would have only had control over their patch of grass. The Liberals would have had control of theirs.. All would have been happy..

 

Later on in a different post I stated that the homosexual rule probably would not have saved the schools from removing support due to the atheist issue.

 

The atheist issue as I stated will be a more difficult issue to find a happy medium for, I would be really surprised if both rules were removed at the same time.. The Atheist rule has been in effect longer and will have a harder time being removed.

[skeptic]

Please explain in non emotional terms why BSA should EVER change the atheist response. God, or specific spiritual belief beyond self, is part of BSA. That is simply the fact. If people do not like that specific element, then they simply can find other avenues. This constant "they need to change because we do not like this or that" is ridiculous.

 

Just MHO of course, and I know there are individuals that somehow think this is wrong. So please, keep your insults or childish remarks to yourselves.

[moosetracker]

For me, I think I am more wishy-washy about the atheist debate.. Open minded, but not yet sold on it. Probably would be more for it, if I felt they could come in and respect other units having the right to keep their religious ideas active in their mission whether it be a small role of just the oath or a large role as in an LDS unit..

 

Most I believe would be respectful, but unfortunately their handful who would not are the loudest, and cause all the news..

 

But I think that slight difference between an agnostic (I don't know if I believe or not.. Or I think there may be something but have no clue what..) Is so close to an atheist of not believing. It is really rediculous to allow one group in and not the other.

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

As a district membership chair of vast seniority (2004), I think homosexuals have little to do with recruiting issues, which are mostly about the difficulty BSA has of recruiting Latino, Asian and African American families.

 

Being welcoming to homosexuals would probably make that task tougher than it is already.

[Pint]

Another way of looking at things would be that those people who feel dissatisfied by Girl Guides Australia dropping certain elements form their promise, may want to join the Scouts instead, who do not discriminate on grounds of gender.

Just to pull up Moosetrackers comments, the main and most popular Scouting program in the UK is run by The Scout Association who are also members of WOSM (as are the the BSA) website http://www.scouts.org.uk , the BBS, or more correctly the BB&GS do exist, but they are very much in the minority they are members of the Order of World scouts (OWS) website http://www.boy-scout.net/en Then theres the Baden-Powell Scouts who are members of the World Federation of Independant Scouts http://www.traditionalscouting.co.uk/ theres a few more of these around, but i have yet to meet any ( although as far as i know they have a few groups in the USA) , plus a tiny handful of other scouting organisations (FSE, etc)

All the above scout Organisations are co-ed in the UK.

[moosetracker]

Sorry.. I would imagine you are right.. I googled their Acronym as I didn't want to keep calling it the Boy Scouts of England.. So is that the acrymn they use? WOSM ?.. Well BBS made more sense "British Boy Scouts"... So they would win the acronym game in my book.

[Pint]

Wosm is just an abreviation for the World Organisation of the Scout Movement.

The main Scouting organisation on the UK is The scout Association, and they cover Scouting in the whole of the UK, which includes England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

 

The Boy Scouts of America, The (UK ) Scout Association, and Scouts Austrailia all belong to WOSM and memebers usualy wear the purple membership badge, or world crest as i beleive its known as in the USA.

 

Girl Guides Australia, Girl scouts USA, and Girl Guides (UK) all belong to the World Assocaition of Girl Guides and Girl scouts (WaGGS)

both are different orgnisations.

 

If a National scouting organisation, and memeber of WOSM dropped the God part ( or relegiouspart )of their promise/oath then it would be worth sitting up and taking notice, but as we are talking about another non Scouting organisation (Waggs) and what they do has little, or no effect on Wosm based Scouting.

 

To overturn the God part would require permision and authorisation from WOSM, if you read up on it, and try and get an understanfding of international Scouting you will probably come to the same conclusion as me, in that it will most likly never happen- there are only a few National Scouting organisations who are members of WOSM who have God as an option in their promise/oath, and these exceptions are anything but new.

 

If we are goign to look into the history of things then maybe the oulander promise (oath) as originaly written by Baden-Powell could be resurected ...

 

On my honor I promise to do my best:

To render service to my country;

To help other people at all times;

To obey the Scout Law.

 

and the original Scout law ( no longer in use in the UK )

A Scouts honour is to be trusted

A Scout is loyal

A Scouts duty is to be useful and to help others

A Scout is a friend to all, and a brother to every other Scout no matter what social class the other

scout belongs

A Scout is courteous

A Scout is a friend to all animals

A Scout obeys orders

A Scout smiles and whistles

A Scout is thrifty.

 

And for comparison the current UK Promise and Law

 

The Scout Promise

 

On my honour, I promise that I will do my best

To do my duty to God and to the Queen,

To help other people

And to keep the Scout Law

 

The Scout Law

 

A Scout is to be trusted.

A Scout is loyal.

A Scout is friendly and considerate.

A Scout belongs to the worldwide family of Scouts.

A Scout has courage in all difficulties.

A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property.

A Scout has self-respect and respect for others.

 

 

 

and to bring things back round to Australia, it olooks like this..

 

On my honour

I promise that I will do my best

To do my duty to my God, and

To Australia

To help other people, and

To live by the Scout Law

 

OR

 

On my honour

I promise that I will do my best

To do my duty to my God, and

To the Queen of Australia

To help other people, and

To live by the Scout Law

THE SCOUT LAW

 

A Scout is trustworthy

A Scout is loyal

A Scout is helpful

A Scout is friendly

A Scout is cheerful

A Scout is considerate

A Scout is thrifty

A Scout is courageous

A Scout is respectful

A Scout cares for the environment

 

[Peregrinator]

The original Scout promise as given by Baden-Powell (1908) read as follows:

 

On my honour I promise that--

 

1. I will do my duty to God and the King.

2. I will do my best to help others, whatever it costs me.

3. I know the scout law, and will obey it.

 

It was later modified (1911?) to read:

 

On my honour I promise to do my best--

 

1. To do my duty to God and the King.

2. To help others at all times.

3. To keep the Scout Law.

 

As an aside, I wonder if the gains seen in Scouts Canada and the Scout Association (UK) can be attributed to the fact that both now admit girls to their cub and Scout programs? I'd be interested to know whether the number of boys involved has gone up or down, as well as whether they are gaining members at the expense of the Girl Guides.

 

[Moggie]

"As an aside, I wonder if the gains seen in Scouts Canada and the Scout Association (UK) can be attributed to the fact that both now admit girls to their cub and Scout programs? I'd be interested to know whether the number of boys involved has gone up or down, as well as whether they are gaining members at the expense of the Girl Guides."

 

From the SA website on our side of the pond- "This year Scouting has seen an increase in adult volunteers with growth up from 1.6% to 2.6%. There have only been two other occasions in the last 23 years where the growth of adult leaders has exceeded 2%.

 

Female membership is up 11% across the UK, smashing the 50K barrier. A surge of over 5,500 new girl Scouts means that over the past 12 months almost as many girls as boys have signed up to the adventure of Scouting.

 

Girls have been part of the adventure since 1976 and this year female membership pushed well past the 50,000 mark to a record 56,470. This means that girls now account for 14% of all youth members of the Scout Movement - But its not only female membership that's on the increase - the entire Movement, from six to 25 year olds, is expanding for the fourth year running, with Explorer Scouting for 14-18 year olds seeing its biggest ever increase."

 

I'm not aware the Girl Guiding is suffering as a result of the our Co-ed policy, I know in my own neighbourhood that guiding is thriving just as much as scouting is.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[Pint]

a cynical approach could be; Scouts - where else can you get child care for under 1.25 per hour? that somehow makes the right noises for both - what those in the USA would call Liberal minded people Scouting is inclusive accepts male and females on an equal grounds has a prescence and (promotes it) at events such as Gay Pride, as well as the more right wing type flag waving, traditional values, patriotic and so on.