1985 Boy Scout commercial with a (now) non-supporter

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

SeattlePioneer writes:

You just don't want to take notice of uses of political power of which you approve.

 

Nope. But that's a good description of your views.

 

A high school student who wants to give a peaceful prayer as part of a graduation speech will find his speech censored and find himself bullied by the principal and Federal Courts for the simple act of giving a peaceful speech.

 

This actually depends on the circumstances, but nuance isn't your strong suit.

 

In other contexts, liberals profess to be horrified at censoring speech and bullying, but they will self righteously use those tactics when they have other values they don't wish people to be able to speak.

 

Nope, the context is an official school ceremony -- graduation. That graduation is for all students, not just for students of the majority religion. Turning a public school graduation into a religious ritual violates the first amendment, as the government is prohibited from doing that. You might notice that nobody is getting preferential treatment -- if one religious group gets to impose their prayer on the entire graduation class, how can you refuse the others?

 

You might want to look up Lee v. Weisman. You're just whining because people can no longer have public graduations involve their religion; instead, they have to hold their own religious graduation ceremonies in a church or something. How awful. Where did I put that tiny violin...

[moosetracker]

While I will agree with Merlyn on removing a prayer in a public school assembly, Just understand Merlyn, this is the changes you are pulling that will keep you out of Scouting, and if ever a local option, will keep you out of many CO's units.. They will not let "general" public, hurt their missions.

 

I will side with SP, that Athiest have been sticking their nose into silencing free religion of school children in another matter.. What difference does it make to an atheist child if a muslim child goes into a private room for whatever praying they feel the need to do at certain times of the day?.. If they are not doing it in the classroom, and not asking all people to follow tradition, and they are privately going off to do their thing, what buisness is it of the athiest?.. It's like trying to pass rules that no child can get permission to leave the classroom to pee.. Respecting everyones beliefs are not happening here.. The Athiest are instead trying to kill the religious rights of muslim children.

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

It's CENSORSHIP of someone's speech. Pure and simple.

 

It just happens to be censorship you like and approve of.

 

This is just one example of where Scouting activities are more diverse than those of institutions that trumpet their diversity.

 

 

[acco40]

I find many of the political ramification of religion fascinating. Kudu seemed to recoil in horror when Christian Scientists practiced their religion by letting "God" heal their sick children with diabetes, etc. In France, the wearing of head scarves in school was prohibited (I think). Here in the USA, some female Muslims were not allowed to cover their faces for driver's license photographs.

 

However, I was able to sing Silent Night in my (public) grade school in the '60s during the Christmas season. My kids sang Kwanzaa songs (and others) at their "Holiday" season assembly in grade school. I noticed there was not Silent Night or other Christmas carols.

 

I think even an atheist could enjoy Handel's messiah without feeling "oppressed." However, even I cringe when I'm at a scouting function and the prayer mentions "Jesus" or any other specific religion.

 

I consider myself very open minded and accepting of others beliefs but I can't really buy into this diversity thrust. I used to have in my office a picture depicting five sterling silver forks. Four were in perfect shape and identical. However one had the tines all bent out of shape. The caption was, just because you are different doesn't mean you are useful. I was told to take it down. (This message has been edited by acco40)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

SeattlePioneer writes:

It's CENSORSHIP of someone's speech. Pure and simple.

 

You have no first amendment right to speak at a graduation. Pure and simple. Read Lee v. Weisman.

 

It just happens to be censorship you like and approve of.

 

Nope. Public school graduations likewise can't promote atheism. Like that ever happens.

 

Moosetracker writes:

I will side with SP, that Athiest have been sticking their nose into silencing free religion of school children in another matter.. What difference does it make to an atheist child if a muslim child goes into a private room for whatever praying they feel the need to do at certain times of the day?.. If they are not doing it in the classroom, and not asking all people to follow tradition, and they are privately going off to do their thing, what buisness is it of the athiest?.. It's like trying to pass rules that no child can get permission to leave the classroom to pee.. Respecting everyones beliefs are not happening here.. The Athiest are instead trying to kill the religious rights of muslim children.

 

Where is this happening, and what atheists are involved? Is it handled like school released time?

[NJCubScouter]

Moosetracker: Re your response to me: Ok. I did not immediately realize that you were using the word "will" in the sort of rhetorical sense that includes the present as well as the future.

 

As for the "spammer" -- it's kind of funny that, less than four hours after you used the phrase "criminal background check" in a post, Tim242 shows up here and makes his first post, an ad for a company that does criminal background checks. (BSA has already chosen their vendor, but thanks anyway, Tim.) I am not a technical guy but I assume some marketing gurus have programs that search the Internet, see when phrases are mentioned that fall into their clients' area of business, and send some person to post the ad. Actually, my assumption would have been that "Tim" is a "bot", but I believe all forums these days have measures in place to prevent bots from registering accounts without human intervention, and "Tim" presumably registered his account right before he made his post. So, "Tim", if you really are a human being and that really is your name, welcome to the forums, I guess. Pull up a virtual log around the computer-generated campfire and share some more of your possibly pre-programmed thoughts.

[SeattlePioneer]

 

 

 

Just because it's the courts that are censoring speech doesn't mean it isn't censorship, pure and simple.

 

 

It's pretty amusing that you can't recognize the concept.

[moosetracker]

OK. Merlin, I will retract that statement.. I read an article a while ago.. When I went in search of it, I found that is was comments about court cases in Germany and Toronto Canada.. As of yet, I don't see atheist protesting against Muslim children using an empty classroom at recess or lunch to quietly do their daily prayers.

I will state that the atheist in the other countries are wrong, when the children are using their own free time, and doing their prayer in private.. I just hope that this battle does not reach the USA..

 

NJCubScouter - Yes the Spammer definitely used some search engine to seek out the words he was looking for.. Right words, but absolutely no comprehension that we do not individual do our own background check, so don't care what is used. They have probably left their spam messages on forums protesting the intrusiveness of background checks, riling the natives so to speak.

 

[packsaddle]

NJ, you're killin' me, man! You are so funny sometimes......

 

 

OK. Tim, please identify yourself as a human. Tim, Tim, are you out there somewhere? Hello, hello, calling Rangoon!

 

Oops. What am I saying? Tim, if you ARE a robot, that is REALLY interesting. Just write something robotic. You know like, "Government regulations never produced a barrel of oil" or something like that.

 

Edit: Wow, I almost missed a chance for an experiment!

Say....how about those background checks? Are they going well? I sure wish there was someplace where we could get background checks. Or at least where we can get background checks at less cost. Boy, would it be just peachy to find a place to get cheap background checks.

(How am I doin'?) Let's see what (bot) pops in....(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

SeattlePioneer writes:

Just because it's the courts that are censoring speech doesn't mean it isn't censorship, pure and simple.

 

Just because you whine, doesn't mean you have the right to make a speech at a graduation.

 

It's pretty amusing that you can't recognize the concept.

 

Oh, I can recognize whining, all right. In your world, apparently everyone gets to make speeches and say prayers anywhere and everywhere they like; there's no such thing as a limited public forum or closed forum. Total strangers get up during graduations all across the country to make speeches, because denying anyone is censorship.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

moosetracker writes:

I read an article a while ago.. When I went in search of it, I found that is was comments about court cases in Germany and Toronto Canada.. As of yet, I don't see atheist protesting against Muslim children using an empty classroom at recess or lunch to quietly do their daily prayers.

I will state that the atheist in the other countries are wrong, when the children are using their own free time, and doing their prayer in private.. I just hope that this battle does not reach the USA..

 

 

Which articles? Are you referring to this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-goerlach/no-skanks-allowed_b_1137744.html

 

For Toronto, if you're referring to Valley Park Middle School, that wasn't about using an empty classroom, the school was conducting religious services in the cafeteria, and only for Muslims.

[moosetracker]

Strange, both your article and mine come from the atheist viewpoint.. Yours tries to show that the muslims dislike non-muslims and so must learn to "get along", while I am sure there may be a few with this attitude, I have a feeling the attitude of one or two are being held up to promote the atheist's cause as right.. Mine shows the athiest disdain for anything religious, and that religion in their opinion is "child abuse", so they want to give anyone special consideration if it deals with their faith.

 

 

http://furiouspurpose.me/should-school-children-brought-up-as-muslims-get-time-and-a-room-to-pray-in-public-schools/

 

 

[packsaddle]

Well....I just HAD to look it up. 'Skank', that is: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=skank

Gad! I'm one of THOSE???

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

moosetracker writes:

Strange, both your article and mine come from the atheist viewpoint..

 

Strange, my article is written by Alexander Goerlach, who has a Ph.D. in Catholic theology and uses "we" when referring to Christians, as in:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-goerlach/egyptian-atheism_b_1009124.html

...

"Being Christian can be a bloody business. Today, we are the world's most persecuted religion, especially in Muslim countries."

...

 

So I have no idea how you can claim his article is from "the atheist viewpoint" (or even "AN atheist viewpoint", since I have detected more than one viewpoint among atheists).

 

Yours tries to show that the muslims dislike non-muslims and so must learn to "get along", while I am sure there may be a few with this attitude, I have a feeling the attitude of one or two are being held up to promote the atheist's cause as right.. Mine shows the athiest disdain for anything religious, and that religion in their opinion is "child abuse", so they want to give anyone special consideration if it deals with their faith.

 

Maybe you'd better be sure that someone is an atheist before saying they're an atheist. Just a thought.

[BSA24]

> Just because it's the courts that are censoring

> speech doesn't mean it isn't censorship, pure and simple.

 

I agree with SP.

 

Respecting the beliefs of others is advanced citizenship. It is a standard that we as Americans have yet to understand or embrace. Frankly, we aren't yet smart enough or emotionally mature as a nation to be able to act on this ideal, even though we say in the Scout Law.

 

I doubt a Muslim call to prayer before meals would be welcome at summer camp. I'd like to see someone do that. Carpets for everyone! Buddhist meditation? Sit down in the half-lotus, everyone, and get out your beads. We will now meditate on the Noble Eightfold Path.

 

No?

 

This is why the atheists are right in trying to silence prayer. Yes, it is censorship. It is necessary censorship to have everyone get along, because despite what we say, religious beliefs are often highly offensive to people who hold different beliefs.

 

A Scout is Reverent - he respects the beliefs of others.

 

In my opinion, respecting the beliefs of others means not speaking about your own beliefs. At all. Because I love my beliefs, but yours are just some science fiction nonsense and your holy book says you will kill my people or we will go to the bad place when we die.