Petitions delivered by Eagle Scout over Anti-Gay Policy

[Beavah]

Yah, nothin' wrong with it. Glad the folks at the meeting met with the young man and handled it well.

 

As an Eagle Scout, though, I would have hoped somewhere along the way the lad had been taught about effective lobbying and citizenship. As nldscout describes, presentin' an online petition might make yeh feel good, or make yeh the darling or spokesperson of your side, but it's not goin' to be effective. To be effective, yeh have to understand da motivations and needs of fellow scouters and address 'em, or understand the mechanisms of decisionmaking within an organization and how to work with 'em effectively.

 

So I think his Citizenship MB counselors and troop let him down a bit by not developin' the "mentally awake" stuff and understandin' of governance in the ways that they could have. Or he just didn't do his homework.

 

Beavah

 

[Tampa Turtle]

I would be proud of him and equally proud of a scout, based on the scout law, that made the case for keeping the status quo. Either way they are doing, in their opinion, the right thing the right way.

[CalicoPenn]

Beavah, you're getting awfully cynical. Can you really believe presenting that petition wasn't effective? Sure, it may not have had an immediate effect of changing the policy, but it led to a meeting that has been described as productive and hopeful by the petitioners, it's gotten press, and here we are talking about it. I'd say that's a good start.

 

I don't buy the online petitions being less valid than a paper petition that has been passed around or that people have stood in front of stores to get signatures. The argument against the online petitions (that people can sign it multiple times) is just as valid with a paper petition - the Sierra Club could stand outside 10 stores in my area and I could make a point to go to each of those stores to sign the petition. Unless the petition would lead to a candidacy or a referendum, no one validates these petitions whether online or not. And if it would lead to a referendum or candidacy, an online petition could be validated the same way as a paper petition (and with federal laws on the books allowing typewritten names to be counted as electronic signatures in some instances, I see no reason why an online petition couldn't be used for a candidacy or referendum drive).

 

It's just not the same as an on-line poll - those are often voted on anonomously and are not equivalent to a phone poll - not that phone polls are any more accurate anyway.

[Horizon]

Beavah - maybe it has been awhile since you were MBC for Cit Comm. This boy got a meeting, presented well, nailed a presence with the press, and kept the issue current. Even better, thanks to his own pedigree he makes an excellent spokesperson for this issue. When you are trying to help drive a significant change within the guidelines (per our Law of Obedience) - that was a pretty good step.

[BartHumphries]

I agree with Beavah. Wahl's work wasn't "effective" lobbying. It's quite literally political showboating.

 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (15.5%), the United Methodist Church (14%), and the Catholic Church (11%) together have 40% of the registered Scouting youths and they actively support the current policy. Enough other churches also support the current policy (such as many Lutheran, Baptist, and Episcopal Church - United States congregations, although not all of their congregations, since those churches have sort of split stances on the topic) that the number of registered youths whose member organization actively support the current policy is well over 50%. Out of the remaining member organizations, most of them don't care. No organization is going to change a basic policy when over half of its members don't want the policy changed and most of the rest don't care.

 

Wahl made the news, good for him. The only way his petitions are going to make a difference, though, are if he tries to change those member organizations that at this point support the current BSA policy (or don't care at this point). He's literally barking up the wrong tree.

[acco40]

He agreed to meet privately and quietly with BSA leadership. I would not call that showboating.

 

I'm a member of a catholic church and I don't support the current policy. So your statistics are hollow.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Scoutfish]

"Wahl's work wasn't "effective" lobbying."

 

So wait a minute, is it being suggested by Beavah that the boy didn't earn his Citizenship MB way back when because because he didn't get the outcome he wanted on a later venture?

 

Just because things do not work ( as of yet) to the way you want them to,.....doesn't mean you didn't do it right.

 

There are hard minded people who you will not convince that Elvis does not fly around in a UFO with Bigfoot as his co pilot.

 

Wouldn't matter what you did, how you did it or if you had the full testimony of every scientist, Medical Dr and examiner on yourt side - some people will not change your mind.

 

 

[Twocubdad]

Boy, I sure wish someone would tell Congress and the Administration political showboating doesn't work. They're spending trillions on it.

[Lisabob]

Watched the movie "Gandhi" with my son tonight. This is a movie recommended to him by his citizenship in community MBC (and also one of my all-time favorite movies).

 

Clearly, Gandhi was not an effective political leader or citizen of his community, because his strategy did not produce immediate, perfect, results.

 

 

[packsaddle]

Lisa, that is a great film about a great true story. Kind of long but if the boy is mature enough, it has so many good lessons. I'm glad you mentioned his ineffectiveness. Sad, for such a man to be such a failure. Clearly the lesson is that while peaceful diplomacy works for a while, guns and thugs ultimately rule in our society and any 'rights' that a minority might be allowed will be at the indulgence of the guns and thugs.

[Lisabob]

pack, to some degree I can see what you're saying, but I would not say that "clearly" the lessons you drew are the ones that jump to mind.

 

It is hard to imagine India today being the thriving, successful democracy it is (world's largest), without Gandhi's influence during that critical time. Not to say there aren't still many, many problems. But by Beavah's interpretation, this makes Gandhi a dismal failure of a leader, a man who should not be an example or role model to our youth of how an individual can advocate for change and social justice in one's community.

 

Funny enough, I notice a lot of the unofficial lists of good movies for the Cit in Community requirement include this movie. I guess a lot of MBCs - not to mention historians, sociologists, and political scientists - view Gandhi a bit differently than Beavah does.

 

Anyway, my son loved the movie. It was a great choice.

[BDPT00]

This is becoming a little too abstract, and sarcasm is probably being lost and misunderstood while taking shots at one another. Allow me to translate: One side of this argument says that the Scout was being a bit disrespectful by showboating, and thereby not obeying the Scout Law. The other side is saying that this is the way our system/society/government works, and his actions were appropriate. We too often and too quickly go down that road (shots at each other). Not knowing the tone and the poster, this will be seen as personal attacks (not mentioning any names, of course, but that's the norm for some). Having read Beavah and Lisabob in the past, I don't believe this to be the case here, but that's just my opinion.

I was at the meetings, and the only people who seemed to notice anything at all going on happened to be the local media. They tried hard to make an issue out of it, but came and went quickly and quietly. Without the local news and scouter.com, I wouldn't have known anything was going on.

BDPT00

 

 

[scoutingagain]

"understand the mechanisms of decision making within an organization "

 

Jeepers, given the myths and legends on eveything from laser tag to power tools perpetuated by district, council and national staff I'd bet 99% of all scouters don't effectively "understand the mechanisms of decision making within the organization ".

 

For the reasons Horizon gave I thought the kid did a hell of job within the expectations of the scout law.

 

SA

[Trevorum]

I spent some time last night reading about the social conditions that lead to the Stonewall Riots in June of 1969, and am startled to realize how far we really have progressed in extending civil rights to previously oppressed minorities. In 1969, had an Eagle Scout spoken out in support of gay rights, (called 'homophile' at the time), the reaction would have been swift and severe, I dare say. Hearts and minds are changed one by one, and I think the tipping point is here, now, this year. I have faith that within our lifetimes, our society will finally come around to full acceptance of gay persons, including membership in stodgy, conservative organizations like BSA.

[NJCubScouter]

In this situation, nothing is likely to bring about immediate change, so faulting this young man for choosing a petition, over some equally (in)effective means, somewhat misses the point. In any event, I don't think it hurts for someone to occasionally remind people (including the current BSA leadership) that this issue is still out there and remains of concern to a lot of people. As I have said before, this policy will eventually change, although it will take a new generation (literally, probably) of BSA leadership to change it. It is possible that things like this may make that day come a little sooner, but of course it isn't (and won't be) possible to prove that, either way.

 

And I find the criticism of the young man's merit badge counselors and troop to be a little bizarre.