its baaackk.... BSA policy on homosexuals and leadership

[DLChris71]

DLChris71 - "As to other scouting organizations, I don't concern myself with actions of organizations I'm not affiliated with." BSA is part of the WOSM (just like the other organizations I mentioned). BSA at the last World Conference blocked a motion calling (among other human rights issues) for equal rights for LGBT people.

 

I'm a Scout, I'm part of the worldwide family of Scouts, so to me anything done in Scouting's name is my business.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Duncan,

 

If you go to see a cow, you should expect to hear it moo.

I commend you on your allegiance to scouting. As such I suspect you respect the process of the vote at the World Council, if not the outcome?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

It's VERY presumptuous to give lectures about oppression and discrimination to LDS church members.

 

No, it isn't. Being oppressed doesn't confer some kind of "get out of criticism free" card.

[shortridge]

DLChris: My moral code tells me that discriminating against people based upon who they love is immoral and wrong.

 

The BSA tells me that my moral code is not as important as someone else's moral code which holds that we should judge and ban people based upon who they love.

 

Why is my moral code inferior? It comes from the same basic principles as the other guy's.

[DLChris71]

DLChris: My moral code tells me that discriminating against people based upon who they love is immoral and wrong.

 

The BSA tells me that my moral code is not as important as someone else's moral code which holds that we should judge and ban people based upon who they love.

 

Why is my moral code inferior? It comes from the same basic principles as the other guy's.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Your problem is not that your moral code is inferior or the BSA's is superior. It is that you wish to participate in BSA activities and want the BSA to change it's moral code to suit your own moral code.

[DuncanHill]

DSLChris71 re: "I commend you on your allegiance to scouting. As such I suspect you respect the process of the vote at the World Council, if not the outcome? " well it didn't come to a vote, after some very heavy arm twisting from the richest national Scouting organization directed at some organizations from very poor countries.

 

I have to say, and I am very far from alone in saying this (as far as UK Scouters go anyway), that BSA's "moral" objection to LGBT members is very far from being either moral or Scouting.

 

In saying that I want to make it very clear that I know that many in BSA - both individuals and at troop and council level, are profoundly uncomfortable with BSA policy (not least, see my link above about the gentleman from Ohio who has recently resigned).

 

I have no idea what your comment about a cow mooing means! I'll put that down to being divided by a common language (This message has been edited by DuncanHill)

[moosetracker]

No one is saying that DLChris.. We are saying let it be local option and up to the CO. Allowing everyones moral code, to be that in which they believe in..

 

A scout is reverent, which means not only following your own moral and religous code, but respecting others moral and religous codes that are different then yours..

 

Since BSA will not respect our different moral code, then we can not be reverent of a moral code we are forced into while not believing in it.

 

Give us the freedom to choose, and everyone can then be respectful of everyone else differing opinion.. In other words, To each their own..

 

 

BSA doesn't force the belief in a Christian God, They don't force a belief in Christ, They don't force a belief that a divorced person is a sinner.. So when have these subjects been bandied about the forum as there being a need to change someones opinion?.. We don't we respect everyones right to their own beliefs.. Yet, until we have a freedom to choose whether same-sex couples are moral or immoral, you will have it argued and debated in these forums.

[packsaddle]

DuncanHill, "I have no idea what your comment about a cow mooing means! I'll put that down to being divided by a common language"

 

actually it made no sense to me either.

[NJCubScouter]

Here are some responses to some of DLChris's points several posts back. I don't have time to respond to all of them.

 

So we have one group that is taking part in an act and another group that says that it's immoral.

 

If the "act" you are talking about is homosexuality, I would point out that there are many, many people (including a number of regular posters in this forum) who do not fall into either of those two groups. Or so it would seem -- I guess I can only speak with absolute certainty about myself. In fact, I think it's that group -- those of us who are not gay but do not think that being gay is immoral -- that is primarily responsible for the recent changes in society's attitudes toward gay people; why discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation has been outlawed in many places, why gay marriage is being recognized in some states, why gay people are now allowed in the military, etc.

 

A code of morality can not stand if we pick and choose.

 

"We", as a society and as members of various religious groups, actually "pick and choose" all the time. It's been going on since the beginning of time, and it's still going on.

 

I've never been able to sit down with an atheist to find out where they think their moral code comes from, that point has always been a minor interest to me.

 

I'm not an atheist (not since I was in college, anyway), but I think if you had such a conversation, you'd find for most atheists, their moral code comes from an innate sense of right and wrong, which all of us (or most of us) have. It would be a moral code based on not hurting others, respecting others, acting honorably, etc. A lot of it is in the Scout Oath and Law.

 

So, it has been said that BSA doesn't "discriminate" against other immoral acts. But what then about the criminal background check, the approval of the CO, the approval of the committee. If a person is an active thief, even a boy, isn't he brought up before the Committee, or turned over to the police if they refuse to repent. How many of us would let a drunk, drive our kids to events or lead a meeting if they showed up drunk? Adultery and homosexuality are no longer, for the most part, criminalized. But every time I hear about adultery on these forums taking place between scouters/parents I hear nothing about positive outcomes. If a CO hears about adultery, especially a situation that disrupts the unit, wouldn't they remove the offending people.

 

I think you're missing the whole point. Nobody is saying that EVERYBODY can be a leader, regardless of their past behavior. A murderer, rapist, armed robber, etc. will get kicked out through the national criminal background check. An adulterer, drunk driver, habitually intoxicated person, will be dealt with by the unit. Some CO's will remove a leader whose reputation around town is as an adulterer, but some will not. It probably depends on the circumstances. Same goes for the person with a drinking problem. I think there was a discussion on here once of a female leader who had been a stripper, though I don't quite remember whether that was a hypothetical, or an April Fool's joke, or what. The point is, there is "local option" for all these things, and there should be for openly gay leaders as well. Another thing I would point out is that, if that was the policy, the "local option" should apply to gay leaders the same way it does for everybody else. If a gay leader is married or in a civil union and cheats on his/spouse, and the unit would kick out a heterosexual cheater, they should kick out the gay cheater as well. Same goes for the habitually drunken gay person. And on and on. The person's orientation just wouldn't be a factor, positive or negative.

 

Homosexuals would like to go through life appreciated for who they are and what they do. I understand. So do thieves, liars, and murderers too.

 

Others have addressed this, but I will just say, the difference is that the first group has not done anything NOT be "appreciated", or at least accepted, while the second group has.

 

But, you know, nobody is asking you to be in a unit where gay leaders are accepted, if you don't want to be. Some of us would just like for local units to have the choice.

[shortridge]

Your problem is not that your moral code is inferior or the BSA's is superior. It is that you wish to participate in BSA activities and want the BSA to change it's moral code to suit your own moral code.

 

-------------------------

 

DLChris, you utterly misunderstand my point. The BSA, a non-sectarian organization, is using a specific moral code to define a key principle of Scouting. It has taken sides, in effect, selecting one faith's moral code over others' and making that principle inviolate, so much so that it has gone to court over it. So yes, BSA - and you - are telling me - and many others - that our moral code *is* inferior, because you are requiring us to violate our principles by enforcing a national policy.

 

Why is my principle of non discrimination less important than your principle of gay people are yucky?

[Pint]

Like it or not, the BSA and homosexuals argument is not going to go away, and apart form the rights/wrongs of the issue it is a stick that the media and other organisations in the USA use against Scouting gernerating lots of negative publicity on the way, and denying some of the good publicity which Scouting deserves and should get.

Over the last few years Scouting in the UK has enjoyed some excellent publicity from the media, and has recruited a few high profile figures as Chief scouts, such as Peter Duncan a former childrens TV presenter known for taking part in adventurous activities - who would be a very familiar name to the parents of Scouts, as well as the current Uk cheif scout, Bear Grylls well known for his outdoor stuff.

We also have some well known/high profile people as Scouting ambasadors.

 

With the negative publicity and (media) stigma attached to Scouting if it discriminates against homosexuals and for that matter any other group), would Scouting in the UK be able to generate good publicity to the same extent, and as a result would UK scouting ( as in via The Scout Association ) be anouncing an increase im membership for the seventh consecutive year?

 

As for the God question, thats a topic for another discussion, UK rules say that you cant be a full leader if you have an avowed absence of religious belief, but you can still be an associate member.

youth memebers are deemmed to be still finding their way, if they question the duty to God part of the Scout promise.

 

[whitepine]

Warning: The following is coming from a conservative Christian who finds homosexuality to be unnatural.

 

Although many people on here don't like to admit it, the BSA is very heavily influenced by the Christian religion. If the BSA allowed homosexual members, many Christians would leave the program. I think that it would hurt the program and our youth greatly.

 

On the topic originally presented here, it seems like the woman who was kicked out of the Cub Pack was just asking for trouble. She obviously knew that she could be kicked out, but took the chance anyway. And now she is starting a petition to allow gays in Scouting. She appears to be allowing non-Scouts/Scouters to sign it, and that makes no sense to me. If the BSA ever changes their policy, I would hate to see liberals and gay rights activists cause it.

[shortridge]

Is that like saying "If Alabama ever changes its segregation laws, I would hate for blacks and civil rights activists to be the cause of it"?

[moosetracker]

Hmmmm... You can be a Christian and be a liberal activist, and believe in equal rights for homosexuals.. Please do not lump all us Christian into your group or beliefs, it is very inaccurate.

[Horizon]

Warning, the following is from a Libertarian Christian who used to actively try to get rid of gays from any aspects of his life (making the gay guy at high school miserable, screaming slurs as we drove by the only gay bar in town, telling as many anti gay jokes as possible, etc.)

 

I then actually met a gay person and made friends with them. I then started to listen to Christ's message of love. I then started to look back on my past in horror. I was a bigot. Period. I was only following what was being taught by my church, my parents and my community. It was still wrong, and I wallowed in the filth.

 

I joined the Presbyterian church. I was re-Baptized by choice. I was elected and ordained as a Deacon. I fought for the inclusion of Gays and Lesbians in our church, and when I moved I joined a congregation that was openly accepting. My son's youth Minister was gay, and I let my son go on the youth ski trip with the young gay Minister. When our Council Exec came to our church and asked why we didn't sponsor a Troop - I told him that as soon as he allowed our youth Minister to be the leader, we would have a Troop of 20, a Crew of 10 and possibly a Cub Pack as well.

 

Being anti-Gay has never been the bedrock of Scouting. Doing the right thing (that good turn) is the bedrock, and we teach it using the great outdoors as our classroom. Anti-gay is simply a left-over attitude of our culture, and sadly is still a core component of many faiths today that can not seem to define themselves using any more positive metrics.

 

I will stay in Scouting, to push change from within. I did the same with the Presbyterian church, and now the church as a whole is an alignment with my beliefs.

 

The BSA is losing potential members every day. The resignation of the Board Member linked earlier in this thread is an example of the types of people we are losing. He is a 3rd generation Eagle who has stepped down. I know of others who will not enroll their sons in Scouts due to the bigotry against gays. These are moral, religious Scouting alumni who can not bring themselves to support the organization.

 

Allow local control. I don't care if you want to pink flag my new unit so that you don't have to come to summer camp and catch cooties from us. I will then be able to get the boy from down the street with two moms in my new unit (one is a stay-at-home mom who would make an amazing Den Leader, the other is a professor who would make a great Merit Badge Counselor). I will then get the son of two men at my church to join as well. Take a look at the woman who triggered this - are you saying that if she had a husband any of you would not have jumped at the chance to have her as your Tiger Den Leader? Do you think that there would be any perceivable difference?

 

In the meantime, my annual FOS donation is now 2 cents with a note. They used to get a lot more. My support is at the unit level, but I can not support at the National level. How much does that add up to from, my fellow Troop members from my youth who have refused to return, and others? What did it cost us to lose the military bases? What is the cost of losing the PTAs? What is the cost of losing the United Way?

 

We are already paying for this policy, and it is only going to get more expensive. All of this so that we can continue to legally discriminate against approximately 2% of the population. We stand our a legal rights, on a tenuous moral basis, and denounce through our actions our fellow citizens. It is not right, this bigotry in fact against the Scout Oath and Law that I say every Monday night.

[Trevorum]

I've been participating in these forums for about 10 years now, I think, and this Issue has regularly been discussed. Today, I am shocked, shocked I say, to realize that the tide finally seems to have turned, at least within the sample of Scouters present on this forum, and I am vastly encouraged. Go back and read some of those long ago threads. The hate was visceral. I do have faith that sometime in the near future BSA will end it's unjust and unjustified bigotry against this class of Americans.(This message has been edited by Trevorum)