its baaackk.... BSA policy on homosexuals and leadership

[Horizon]

I put this in a prior run of this debate, but if my beloved Corps can handle gays - what is our problem again?

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/09/local/la-me-1009-gay-pride-marines-20111010

[packsaddle]

Hi Trev, I've made the same observation. About attitudes, not the one about how long you've been in these forums. If you look at your registration date....

But you're sure right about some of those years past. I too am encouraged but I'm not going to kid myself, the hate dies hard...especially when persons self-deceive themselves into justifying it on the basis of faith.

 

DLChris71, you wrote:

"I've never been able to sit down with an atheist to find out where they think their moral code comes from, that point has always been a minor interest to me."

And while it might be a waste of their time, and while I can't speak for them, I can say with confidence that religious faith is not necessary in order to make moral judgements or to form a moral code. If you think that moral absolutes exist, and base that on your faith, that is good for you. But that is your belief and no better than anyone else's belief.

 

Edit: Horizon, excellent point, both times.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Once_Eagle-Always_Eagle]

i believe the bsa spokesman said it well. There is a difference between disagreement and disrespect- and i see many posters that make no such distinction. i can respect your difference in religious beliefs or even your belief that homosexuality is normal... but it doesn't mean i agree. the problem i have is you are changing the standards after the fact. if you don't like the standards start a new org.

 

 

and allowing local CO only works to the extent we have agreed upon standards. Take it to the Nth degree... lets allow girls in too if the chartered org will- i can think of MANY benefits! But i suspectthe BSA won't fit the original mold of what B.P. intended.

[DLChris71]

shortridge- Why is my principle of non discrimination less important than your principle of gay people are yucky?

 

>>>>>>>

 

I never said gay people are yucky. In my denomination, yes, homosexuality, that is the actual act of homosexuality, is a sin. We certainly accept homosexuals into the congregation, but as long as they are unrepentant they can't take on a leadership position. The same as with any other person that sins. If a person sins they should repent of that sin. Now here's the thing, like I said before one sin is as bad as another. A lie is as bad as the act of murder or homosexuality.

 

All are sinners and have fallen short. Yes, I acknowledge that some people say that the love of Christ trumps all sin, and yes it does. And it was Christ that said let he who is without sin be the first to cast a stone. But then he also to the adulteress that he saved to go and sin no more.

 

Certain Christian denominations would prefer to simply gloss over sin. Not just homosexuality. Some denominations claim other stuff too. Now you want to repeat over and over the mantra that I'm wrong, that the BSA is wrong, and certain posters want to throw out words like prejudice and bigot.

 

Well you know what. I can throw that out too. That traditional Christian people are constantly under an assault of bigotry and prejudice. In certain parts of the world Christians are beheaded and hacked to death. That it is nothing for popular culture to make snide remarks, to accuse of hypocrisy, to point out individual failings and apply it to the whole body. To bombard our children with objectional content and materials. To attempt to indoctrinate us in to a liberal sensibility.

[Horizon]

DLChris71 - you don't have to leave America to find bigoted violence though. Right here in these United States gays are bashed, abused, in some cases tied to a fence and murdered (The Matthew Shepard case). Even a screening of the movie about his life triggers protestors.

 

So, while it is true that Christians are under assault in some nations, I am focused on the bigotry here in America where gay children are bullied, leading to higher rates of suicide. I am focused on the bigotry here in America, where gay people are bashed to death.

 

This is why when I am not counseling Shotgun and Rifle Merit Badges, I spend the occasional evening doing self-defense training for the Pink Pistols (I consider it part of my penance for past sins).

http://www.pinkpistols.org/

 

One of my favorite moments, after teaching a young man how to manage recoil, was our conversation. He found out I was a Christian and a Scoutmaster, and started crying. He was kicked out of his home, Church and Troop when it was found out that he was gay. He assumed that we were all bigots (I paraphrase, his actual language is inappropriate for a Scouting forum). To learn that some of us did not carry that attitude helped him.

 

It hurt me. That is how I am judged silently every time I am in uniform. I can live with being seen as a nerd, dork, or whatever. I can trot out my shorts and knee socks with the best of them. I HATE that I am also assumed to be a judgmental bigot.

[moosetracker]

Horizon - That is interesting work you do.. Sad though, I saw the gays with guns and first reaction was that I worried about their suicide rate. Not society with them with a gun, but their own personal saftey.. I know, though they can commite suicide 100 different ways, so why not arm them for protection..

 

DLChris - A lie is as bad as the act of murder or homosexuality. Let's see we will not allow you to be a boyscout member if you are convicted of a murder, or known to be a homosexual.. I guess if you have been found out to have lied, we should add that onto a reason for Denial into the BSA.. Can we add on thief, Adulter, divorcee, drunk and drug Abuser? Not to local CO option.. Let's make them all by National rule..

 

I think if nothing else knocks the membership down to zero, the liar will..Everyone has lied, even if it is those little white lies to make someone feel better. Guess what, most of us are not even repentant of some of those little white lies, it's called social manners.. (I may even admit to taking some tape or paper clips when needed, and not returning them)..

 

As you state, all of us our sinners.. But I disagree there is not a ranking as to what is and is not a more serious sin (or crime).. I am content with our society deeming which ones are bad enough to put a person in jail, and give them a criminal record.. I am content with a criminal record being a reason not to be a BS Leader..

 

But, why does your religion get to rank some sins that are not criminal as worse then others? I mean, can a liar take on a leadership position in your church? If we are all sinners, and all sins are ranked equally, then you should have zero leadership in your church..

[DLChris71]

Because a person that repents and makes things right...ie...I lied, I'm sorry I lied, I ask you and God for forgiveness, how can I make things right...

 

Forgiveness is not a difficult thing. We are to love our neighbor and be willing to forgive. What is difficult is for someone who has sinned to admit guilt. So no, it's not impossible to have leaders, but yes leaders will fail. It can also be hard to forgive, but it is just as much a commandment to forgive, and a sin to hold a grudge.

 

And thus my religion does not rank sins.

 

(This message has been edited by dlchris71)

[scoutingagain]

Trev, Pack,

 

I had similar thoughts. A few more events described in the OP and a couple of high profile donors pulling out, and I think change will happen sooner than most expect.

As I said earlier, it won't be with fanfare or news conference. It will show up on a back page in fine print and simply state COs have the flexibility to select leadership for their units. A call will come about a specific individual and National will simply defer to the CO. There will be no headline. Most will never notice it happened, except at the few local units that end up with an openly gay leader.

 

 

SA

 

 

[moosetracker]

But, I am not sorry I told my dieing grandmother that she was looking well.. Nor am I sorry that I told the host of the party I went to that I enjoyed myself.. Nor, did was I really repentant when I took some scrap paper off of employee at desk A, to write a note for employee at desk B.

 

There are things everybody does in everyday life, that you are not repentant for. For some homosexuals, they truely wish they could be normal, so much so that they may commit suicide over it.

 

Will I commit suicide over the taking of a piece of scrap paper off of emplyee at desk A?? No, it is probably forgotten in 10 minutes tops.. Yet my lack of remorse for stealing will not keep me from a leadership position.. The fact that I may do it again the next time employee B is away from their desk when I visit, will not keep me from a leadership position..

 

I will not have my employeer write me countless emails about how sinful a person I am, if he comes to know I took that scrap paper. I will not get fired over taking the scrap paper.

 

My Grandmother will not turn her back on me and disown me because I told her she was looking well on her death bed.. She may even laugh a little, and tell me what a liar I am.

 

My friend, may already know that I did not enjoy sitting next to Old Joe, the loudmouthed womenizer during that dinner party.. But, she will still be my friend even though I told her I had enjoyed myself at the party. She wont heckle me in the hallway, and tell everyone she knows that I am a liar, and should be shunned. She wont write nasty comments about me on facebook..

[packsaddle]

Moosetracker, I tell you I'm shocked that you would even admit it about that scrap of paper. I feel ashamed that I even read about it. I couldn't be sorrier for you if I'd found you passed out drunk, face down in the toilet at the New York Port Authority Bus Terminal. But you must now accept that you now are of equal rank to murderers, rapists, and pedophiles.

But.....at least you didn't use the 'M' word.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[qwazse]

Christians reserve the right to impose on culture. They demanded the Roman Empire end the practice of molesting young boys, among other things. They appealed to Britian to abandon the imperial slave trade. They drive capitalism towards pacifism. (Okay, that one's not going very well.) They oppose slaughter of innocents. And they put constraints on one's sexual expression.

 

Conservative Chrisitians in the USA see themselves as called to uphold these cultural mandates (hypocracies notwithstanding). So there's no reason to expect Christian COs to back away from seemingly strident stances.

[moosetracker]

qwazse - Wow! and to do all that without ranking sins.. Of course you are not the one who states that Conservative Christians do not rank sin. But, if you think Christians rank sin and DLChris thinks you don't, then there is a mis-match of the minds.

 

They drive capitalism towards pacifism. (Okay, that one's not going very well.)

 

Now there is something to think about. You are slowly loosing your fight for social outrage at homosexuality, so the answer is to dig deeper and be more riggerous with making these homosexuals feel like outcasts..

 

If this is your stance on capitalism.. and you are loosing that fight, why are you not kicking out of the church those who have become wealthy off of capitalism..? Any one who works on Wallstreet or is a CEO should be denied church leadership and not allowed to be a BS Leader. At least until they repent and give up their jobs and their money..

 

And ...NO... the church nor Boy Scouts should be the receipient of that ill-gotten gain as it is tainted with sin..

 

Problem is both like $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to well themselves.. As others have said the $$$$$$$$$$ will buy acceptance regardless of the sin.

 

 

[packsaddle]

Scoutingagain, "Most will never notice it happened, except at the few local units that end up with an openly gay leader."

This is the part that I always marvel at because it is already the case, even now. It's called "don't ask, don't tell". The key element is a single term, "avowed".

The homophobes protest at the prospect of something that's already reality, they just don't know it. The only difference is how open it is, really it's just superficial appearance.

[Oak Tree]

There will be no headline. Most will never notice it happened, except at the few local units that end up with an openly gay leader.

 

Maybe in the old days this would have been the case. When the policy was unwritten and not fully communicated, and when word didn't spread so easily.

 

But now that the BSA has drawn the line in the sand over and over and over, gone to court, laid out all of their rationale for the position, it's not going to be so easy to make the change without having members and news people take note of the change, and comment on it in forums like this one.

 

Now, they might be able to do something like "we haven't changed our official policy. We just aren't enforcing it. We've decided it is cost-prohibitive to fight these court battles. Units are still free to remove anyone who is in violation of the policy."

 

I'd hope there are some good lawyers and PR people who are considering how to make this change. After some time of having the policy not enforced, then an official change in the policy can happen with less fanfare.

[shortridge]

DLChris,

 

You focused on the "yucky" part without answering the actual question.

 

Why does your moral code take precedence over mine within Scouting?

 

---------

 

As to the point over publicity - if the policy changes, it will be front-page news across the country, if it happens in this decade.