Not Knots

[OldGreyEagle]

In another thread, the topic of how to teach knots came up and strategies to have the scouts retain the skill. I wish I had an answer, but I dont, but I would love to hear what other people do to keep knot skills honed.

 

When demonstrating a knot, I always face away from the person and raise the rope over my head to tie it so the scouts see the knot tied as they will tie it.

 

I also use two rock climbing ropes,they are huge, which makes it easy for little hands to work with and they are two different colors so its easier to see the relationship of the ropes to each other as the knot is tied.

 

Knots are a skill, and as with any skill, the more you do them, the better you get, so what do you do to get them to do them?

[Zahnada]

As you said, the trick to knowing knots is using them often. Once someone starts using knots and tying them for reasons besides merit badges and rank advancement, then they will remember the knot.

 

I always make sure they learn the knot in a practical setting. When tying down a dining fly or a tent, two half-hitches and a tautline hitch are wonderful. Once boys see the uses of those knots in a practical setting, they will see the knot's value. And then they will use the knot and remember.

 

Besides that, the only pioneering advice I can give is to practice, practice, practice. The best way to learn splicing is to sit down with a huge box of rope and go to work. That's how I finally learned and I never forgot.

[evmori]

We started "Knot of the Night" at the beginning of our Troop meetings. We start with the square knot then move on to 2 half hitches, tautline hitch, bowline, clove hitch & timber hitch. This seems to keep this skill in the forefront and it is reinforced each week.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[ozemu]

good thread OGE, and I like Ed's Knot of the Night.

 

When teaching a knot I start by showing the finished knot, explain it's purpose and how it works. With the end in mind I then show how to tie the knot. After showing the full process I then re-show step one. When step one is re-shown I then allow the Scouts to grab their rope and follow my lead. If I let them fiddle with the rope before that point they don't watch and get lost.

 

Some learn by watching, others by trying and getting it wrong, others by reasoning and explaination and some by just copying step by step. I try to do all methods as a process described above so that they all have a chance and don't get disheartened waiting for their favourite learning method.

 

As a boy I practised lots - a favourite for a few months was to tie up a volunteer Harry Houdini. No matter what you do there is almost always a way for the volunteer to loosen and then untie your knot. You soon learn that lots of kots is not the solution. Haven't encorouraged this as SM. Basically had forgotten until this thread. No looping ropes around necks, pulling limbs tight or involving a stick or other foriegn object. Too big a minefield to try that now. There are other ways.

 

I always escaped.

[Stan Riddle]

I have used knot relays, where each Patrol is timed on how many knots they can tie correctly. I really don't hope for them to remember EVERY knot ( I never could as a Scout ), but the 15 or so that are used on a regular basis.

 

Like anything else, repitition and fun.

[OldGreyEagle]

Surely you jest!!!!

 

Have them remember 15 knots? I consider it a success if they know the 6 required

[SR540Beaver]

OGE,

 

I have to agree with Zahnada about using knots. Almost anyone can learn anything, but retention comes with use. Think of your VCR or some other piece of electronic equipment you have. You read the instruction book when you got it and figured out how to program the unit. Six months later you have a power outage and have to reprogram the unit. Can you do it....or do you have to dig the book out again? If you are like me, you dig the book out again. We have 4 TV's, 2 VCR's, 1 DVD player, a digital cable box, a Playstation 2 and a Nintendo 64. Not to mention 3 PC's and a network router. Two of the PC's are Windows 98 and one is Windows XP. Trust me, I refer to books all the time when I have to fix something. Yes, my 10 year old son can pick up the remotes and work miracles without reading instructions.......I lost the talent about 20 years ago! LOL The point is, we require knots for advancement and merit badges, but most boys just don't need to tie knots in their daily life. Heck, even the shoes they wear now have zippers or velcro. Look at the tents we use that can be set up in 5 minutes. Rings and pins, shock cords and all of the lines have hooks and tensioners on them. The hardest thing they have to do is hammer a stake in the ground.....maybe. I'm not advocating dropping knots. It is a valuable tool that can be a life saver....literally. But if they can't apply it to daily life, they will forget it shortly, no matter how many lessons and competitions they have.

[buffalo2]

Under the application theme: One night one of the Moms sent in a birthday cake for her son; a nice break from the routine. Wily SM built on that by challenging each Scout at the kitchen door with a piece of rope and a knot to demonstrate... Kept the traffic manageable in the kitchen for a while and everyone got a chance to practice! Provided a great object lesson to the older Scouts.

[dsteele]

Tip from a lefty --

 

If you're right handed and are having difficulty teaching knots to a left-hander (like my poor Scoutmaster had to teach me,) stand next to the Scout in front of a mirror. Have him watch you in the mirror. That's how I finally learned the bowline.

 

DS

[red feather]

Knot of the Night is used at random intervals to that the scouts can't brush up for just one night. Two different colored ropes make it easier to see which rope goes where. Teaching the uses is good also, this comes in handy since every overnight I can go on the boys always have some knot work to do, camp gadgets, tripods for cooking or patrol flag, etc. Knot board is useful also during relays and knot sessions. Visual display and all that.

 

Also the boys know that I will always have two different colored ropes tied with a larks head on my scout belt and at any given time during a meeting ( as long it does not disturb the program) they may be asked to tie one of the basic scout knots (younger scouts) or one of the knots needed to know for pioneering (older scouts). They seem to enjoy watching others try to tie the knots and many times one scout will help and work with another scout on how to tie the knot.

 

Knots are a basic part of a board of review for all ranks including any Eagle board that I am on. The scouts that hold the early rank boards are making sure the scouts have the skill also. Part of the way boards are done...tradition.

 

I have found that if I show enthusiasm for a skill the boys will also..... eventually. Small groups are best to work with. When I am working with just one or two scouts I have them stand beside me, that way they see the rope movements clearer.

 

Teaching the Monkey Fists has gotten many of the scouts interested in knots. However, splicing is still magic to most of them. Had one ask me why splice short ropes to make a long one when rope is cheap at the hardware store. Sigh.

 

yis

[packsaddle]

dsteele, I sympathize because I have quite a few boys who tie certain ones left-handed (bowline, etc.) but as long as the knot is technically correct (read, fully functional) I merely praise them and remind them that there ARE two ways to tie it.

OGE, I agree...good memory of 6 or so would be great.

Buffalo2, I can only imagine the withering looks you must get at times like that..makes it all worth it.

Ed, Red Feather, I like the knot of the night approach. Will start trying that approach as well. We do knots as BORs also..it has gotten to be sort of a game with the boys. They know I will ask them at least one knot but they get their hopes up when they see I don't have my trusty piece of rope. Then I 'find' it in the trash can or some other place. Laughs all around, boys rolling their eyes.

[saltheart]

While agreeing that the more one uses something, like knots, the more they become second nature, I've always found that the "visual" thing right up front in the teaching process can be a huge stumbling block. We used two things that we found helped in this effort.

 

First, we went to our local "big box" home improvement store and purchased enough of the half inch nylon briaded rope so that each Scout would have two pieces...one green, and one red, each at least six feet long. Learning to tie knots with the different colored ropes seemd to provide a good threshold over that stumbling block at the main door to learning.

 

The other thing we did, by way of entertainment and sometimes a game, was to obtain a very, very large piece of rope that required two or more scouts to tie any knot. We were fortunate enough to have a Dad who had access to the shipping docks in the harbor, and he was able to get an old but still quite usefull piece of 3" hauser about 75 feet long. We kept it coiled neatly in a corner of the main room at the Scout House, and would use it from time to time in presentations of knots, showing how each end of the rope worked, and where it went in each knot. While the Scouts had a great time trying to use this beast to tie the knots, and they actually did learn from it, they had more fun watching adult leaders and others trying to present the knots using the same piece of rope. It was quite challenging, even if one knew the knots blindfolded. Thus, it was fun for all, and that...the fun part...was the best teacher of all, for it kept the boys interest.

[Bob White]

I agree that practice is a big factor. There are different ways to practice knots from the "here tie a bowlinr for me" to "you need to hang a bear bag using these lines, have at it" the latter being my favorite.

 

Too often I see scout activities being dry and lacking in challenge or adventure. I continually see that the scouts learn more from a practice or testing experience that requires them to put the skill to use in a practical application.

 

my 2 cents,

BW

[ozemu]

Been looking at getting ropes in patrol colours for my scouts but cannot find the right thing. Have also decided to get 8mm static prussick cord instead of braided nylon. Cost is much higher but climbing rope is more coloufull and feels great when handling it. Also flexible and doesn't kink when rolled for while. Hope that this will make knotting more attractive. Can then follow red feathers lead with carrying rope on the belt and doing random checks.

[packsaddle]

ozemu, Your budget must be doing ok to use climbing rope. Ours is mostly donated. We get hundreds of meters of rope but not much choice of what kind (but most of it is really good condition). Colors are out of the question. H'mmm, I was just reading another thread, did we violate some fundraising rule?