Is the AHG truly a Scouting program??

[KC9DDI]

I get the concerns and unhappiness over AHG's use of religion, but I'm still not sure what criteria are used to evaluate whether ANY program (be it the AHG, the BSA, the GSUSA, etc) is a true Scouting program.

 

BadenP - What is the specific reason that the AHG wouldn't be considered a true Scouting organization?

[qwazse]

not the GOD of the Bible, but a twisted interpretation of scripture that is plainly erroneous

 

So, promotion of heresy (let's set aside, for a moment, the ability of Joe Scouter to discern such a thing in post-modern society) should disqualify a group from calling itself a scouting program?

[BadenP]

KC9

 

Simply put the AHG is purely an evangelizing and proselityzing tool of an organization with a very twisted understanding of Christianity. It uses a few scoutlike trappings to attract young girls into their web of deception, but that does not make them a "scouting organization". Instead their racist and exclusionary policies make them nothing more than a "hate" group that claims it is Christian but in reality is anything but Christian.

[KC9DDI]

Baden - Maybe it's not a very good Christian organization. But I still don't understand, specifically, why it is not a true Scouting program?

[Trevorum]

I don't understand either. If Spiral Scouts and Scouting For All are both 'scouting programs', why not AHG?

[skeptic]

You will not get an actual answer from BadenP, as he obviously needs to continue to hone his axe, for whatever reason. BadenP; "A Scout is Reverent"; he "respects" the religious convictions of others". You seem to think they do not; but you are simply doing the same thing, if that is your gripe.

 

As far as scouting organization goes, I do not see anything in their material indicating they are calling themselves one anyway. They are one more youth group, an option for those with some concerns about other female groups available. And, the restrictions are on adults anyway, not youth, pretty much like the joining requirements for BSA.

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

BadenP: ".......it is NOT open to any girl or open to any adult potential leader because they are not a US citizen. If you want to go on attacking me fine, I really could care less as you three in particular are really showing your own immaturity and ignorance as to what the AHG organization truly represents.

 

Because the AHG emphasizes GOD in their program does not make it special or holy in any way since the god they represent certainly is not the GOD of the Bible, but a twisted interpretation of scripture that is plainly erroneous......."

 

"Simply put the AHG is purely an evangelizing and proselityzing tool of an organization with a very twisted understanding of Christianity. It uses a few scoutlike trappings to attract young girls into their web of deception, but that does not make them a "scouting organization". Instead their racist and exclusionary policies make them nothing more than a "hate" group that claims it is Christian but in reality is anything but Christian."

 

You have NOT backed up your claims with facts. You have stated your opinion repeatedly and ignored any requests for specifics. Your last sentence is a perfect example. Let me counter that with actual black and white print from their adult application form.

 

http://www.americanheritagegirls.com/uploads/AdultVolInfoWithApp11.pdf

 

"AHG is a Christ-centered scouting organization that recognizes the importance of religious faith yet leaves religious instruction to the members family and religious leaders. Members are not forced to participate in religious activities."

 

"Girl membership in the organization shall be made available to all without regard to race, color, creed or national origin, under

such rules and regulations, not in conflict with the provisions of the AHG Oath: I promise to love God, cherish my family, honor

my country and serve in my community, and the Purpose and the Basic Policies of AHG."

 

Mo one is "attacking" you. We are disagreeing with your unfounded personal opinions. You're the one getting your shorts in a bunch when someone challenges something you've said with facts.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

[Peregrinator]

My guess is that AHG doesn't refer to itself as a "scouting" program in order to avoid the use of the term, which is trademarked by the BSA. But whether an organization says that its program is a scouting program has little to do with whether or not it actually is a scouting program!

 

I think it would be difficult to show that a particular program is not a scouting program, honestly. If there were little or no focus on the outdoors, then that would be a clear indication, but that doesn't seem to be the case with the AHG.

 

And "Scouting For All" is not a scouting program as they say on their web site, "Scouting For All is not an alternative scouting program." That's not to say that they couldn't be, just that they aren't.

[CalicoPenn]

I don't believe Campfire USA considers themselves a "scouting" organization. Indeed, one of the hallmarks of a "scouting" organization, according to both the WOSM and the WOGGGS, is spirituality and the importance of a higher power - Campfire BSA is wholly secular in nature. BTW, the AHG site never makes the claim that it is a scouting program. That comes from an enthusiastic volunteer but it's pretty easy to see that there are so many similiarities in how the programs operate, that someone could call it a scouting program.

 

So folks need some kind of definition of what a "scouting" program is? Then I direct you to the aformentioned WOSM and WOGGGS - both are keepers of the "Scouting movement" and their definitions are remarkably similar.

 

But the question is, why wouldn't it be a scouting program? I would certainly call it a scout-like program, and there are others out there that are scout-like but aren't scouting programs (example - Campfire USA). So what keeps AHG from being a "Scouting Program"? One of the core principles of a Scouting Program, according to the WOSM and WOGGGS is that Scouting is open to ALL people regardless of Creed, Nationality etc. Unfortunately, since one of their key operating provisions is that AHG subscribes to a Triune (and Christian) God, it leaves people out with other creeds. In other words, no Jews or Muslims need apply. I am not stating that is a negative I really don't care who they admit and don't admit - it's just what is - and since that's the case, since they aren't open to other Creeds - they just aren't part of the Scouting Movement.

 

But they still fill a role, and as our forum communities biggest booster of AHG right now mentioned on another thread, he daughter's excited and loving it - and isn't that enough? Is it really that important to call it a Scouting Program, or not a Scouting Program? Can't we just welcome it into the fold as another Youth Program??

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

I would call it a Scout like program using many of the methods of Scouting.

 

Keep in mind that many BSA units don't use all the methods of Scouting either.

 

Of course it has one thing no Cub Scout or Boy Scout unit has --------- GIRLS!

[Trevorum]

Hmmm... I'm starting to see a Venn diagram here, overlapping circles, BadenPowell, outdoors emphasis, inclusiveness...

[Trevorum]

Hmmm... I'm starting to see a Venn diagram here, overlapping circles, BadenPowell, outdoors emphasis, inclusiveness...

[shortridge]

AHG does not call itself a Scouting or scouting program. It calls itself a "scout-type" organization. However, it is first and foremost a Christian ministry.

 

http://www.ahgonline.org/uploads/pr_AHG50percentgrowth_winter2011.pdf

and

http://ahgonline.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=19412

[Scoutfish]

"Scoutfish- a program as defined in the BSA programming materials, handbooks, etc. not your own personal erroneous interpretations much like AHGMom's."

 

Actually....speaking of erronous - If you actually read ANYTHING I wrote, you should have understand that I stated a dictionary defintion of scouting. Not my own personal definition.

 

And the question I askd was why do YOU get the right to decide which organazation is the only program that is a scouting program?

 

Why do you decide that BSA's program is the only scouting program?

 

I know you used BSA's prgram as they wrote it, but BSA isn't the one making statements about other programs not being real .

 

What makes you an authority that declares only BSA's plan is legitimate enough to be called a scouting program?

 

And speaking of BSA being the "only real" scouting program...maybe you could your own personal hatred and bigotry aside and realize that the very program you are using as the standard just happens to think good enough of AHG to work with them and support them too.

 

So far, on every single thread, you have not made a single statement that has any proof of what you claim. Anybody and everybody that feels oposite of you is attcked by you and insulted by you.

 

The only comment that was barely even remotely close to insulting you back, was from SR540Beaver, and you deserved it > Give proof or shut up and drop it!

 

[MomWhoCamps]

While I don't agree that AHG is exclusive with regard to its Girl membership requirement, nor do I agree with the assessment that AHG's brand of Christianity looks down on non-Christians, I can definitely understand how someone does make that assessment would be uncomfortable with that. What I find fascinating about the conversation thus far on the issue of AHG and "exclusion" based on religion is the similarity between the arguments being used on both sides of the issue on this thread and the arguments being tossed around about BSA's "exclusionary" membership policies on this thread in I&P: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=333103. In fact, there's one poster on the other thread that goes as far as to say, "I don't know why anyone would be surprised...this is what happens when you have a nonsectarian service organization attempt to include a nod to Abrahamic religion.

 

Eventually, one or the other simply has to go...they can't coexist. Eventually the BSA is going to do the same thing. It's either going to have to dump "public God" (i.e., the religion awards, the bar on atheists, the bar on homosexuals, drop vocal prayers for moments of silence) or dump all pretense at being nonsectarian and choose where to draw it's line in the sand...at Abrahamic Monotheism or Christianity.

 

Either way, ther will be some unhappy people in Scouting."

 

Obviously, I have no special insight, but it does make me wonder, as I've said in another thread, whether the partnership with AHG does, in fact, say a lot about where BSA sees its future. We can all sit here and debate, debate, debate what BSA's intentions are, but actions speak a whole lot louder than words.