Our War Against the Young

[Beavah]

Yah, as I was thinkin' about the other issue with the supposed neurological development of teens and young adults, I came across this piece:

 

http://www.esquire.com/features/young-people-in-the-recession-0412?hootPostID=5f6f984b7be4ad7b0db41c62d0de5b0d

 

While there are aspects of it that are badly slanted to the left, it captures with some data and reflection some of the sense that I've been feelin' for some time now. In law and society we have been buildin' up a culture of discriminatin' against young people. In many ways like all such stuff it comes from the majority wanting to protect and enhance its privileges, and the majority in our nation is gettin' older every year. Like all such stuff, folks try to find ways of justifyin' it, and most of da folks who are involved don't even recognize what they're doin' or the harm they're causing.

 

In Scoutin' we have a whole mess of us old fellows (and ladies!) who actually care a lot about young people, and see 'em every day. So we're the most likely in our generation to stand up for the young. I'm curious what yeh all think.

 

Beavah

 

[eisely]

This is a lengthy thought provoking article, but it is also superficial in many respects. There are many things that have gotten us to where we are today, and the increased demand by all age cohorts for instant gratification is one of them.

 

Although the article attempts to be even handed in spreading blame between the two major political parties, the bulk of the blame belongs to the Democrats. I would remind readers that in 2005 after he was re elected George W. Bush put forth ideas for social security reform in particular that would have favored the young. He was thoroughly trashed by the Democrats and the main stream media for doing so and the suggestions died very quickly.

 

Regardless of the politics of the situation, people are simply outliving the actuarial tables and that matters a great deal; to the extent that policy makers pay attention to honest actuarial analysis.

 

How's this for a suggestion: Why don't we abolish the current federal system and replace it with twelve autonomous regions. Then we could have annual contests where we set the young against each other to provide entertainment. Oh wait, that's already been suggested....

[Basementdweller]

I am getting old......

 

I will say the way the gals dress in high school now.....I was from the Izod sweater era...Now the girls are wearing thongs, have tramp stamps and micro mini skirts and hooker heels.......Now I understand and appreicate all gals don't dress this way..... And the way some of them talk......wow.

 

What about our young men....All Tattoo'd up, wife beater tshirt, crooked ball hats, pants hanging down below their butts, tennis shoes with no laces?????????? The way they treat the girls is horrible...They don't work.....No car, No drivers license and they could care less.

 

I think that our youth have started to give up hope......

 

 

No longer are the majority going to do better than their parents.....Single or Absentee parents these kids have never had a stable home........How many of your scouts mom or dad are still actively dating and carving out time for themselves.....often at the expense of their kids.....

 

Had one dad fail to pick up his scout because he lost on the pool table and wouldn't come till he won it back........

 

Lost another scout because single dad couldn't tear himself away from the playstation long enough to drop him off.

 

Had one mom who was still dressed in her club cloths from the night before picking up her scout after a camp out Sunday at 3pm......she reeked of sex and booze............

 

 

So how are these kids supposed to be with the horrible examples their parents set??????

 

 

Today is report card day, I expect 4 cubs to show me their report cards, if all is good after the meeting we will go to the ice cream shop to celebrate.....

 

I hope to break the cycle with these guys....Honestly I don't think they have a chance.

[boomerscout]

yeah, it now takes a village to raise a child. But, if the entire village is trashy, I have no solution EXCEPT to get the kids into the woods & wilderness, give then a series of increasing responsibilities, let them fail when/where the consequences of failure aren't life threatening (and avoid "quickie" merit badges)

[packsaddle]

Basementdweller, if you can break the cycle for even one or a few, that will be a wonderful contribution. I wish you the best.

As for the general tone of the original post...all of this is a rational and predictable outcome of our embrace of the free market as a force to structure society. It became our national religion during the Reagan era and there is no way to escape the consequences short of some of the things I've advocated in the past. As long as the strong and the wealthy continue to subordinate to their own advantage the weak or poor using market mechanisms, we will continue to 'eat' our own young. Insects do this when conditions are right. Same thing..we just have internal skeletons.

[Eagle92]

Read a good bit of the article and was getting disgusted and had to stop.

 

There were some good points, but overall I think it misses the boat. Yes folks are living longer and working longer. And that is a factor for youth being unemployed.

 

But I also know some of the attitude they have. I have kids showing up and expecting to have things done for them NOW! Things don't go their way, they get mommy or daddy to take over. And some of these "kids" are college students.

 

When I was teaching college, I had a young student "you can't fail me, my job is paying for me to get my degree." Wouldn't listen to my advice, wouldn't do the extra credit I offered the class, just expected me to give them an 'A" On the opposite end was the adult student who needed a degree to keep their job. Had a conference with him and all he asked of me was "tell me what I need to do so I can pass this class, and I'll do it. My company is paying for me to get this degree, and if I don't pass I knot only have to pay them back, but I lose my job." While he didn't need the extra credit work, he did it anyway.

 

BASE,

 

Keep it up and don't get discouraged, no matter how hard it gets. YOU ARE MAKING A DIFFERENCE!

[Beavah]

In 1984, American breadwinners who were sixty-five and over made ten times as much as those under thirty-five. The year Obama took office, older Americans made almost forty-seven times as much as the younger generation.

 

I think this kind of shift yeh can't attribute just to some kids not working hard enough. And we have to admit that both social security and medicare are among the largest intergenerational wealth transfers around. That's not free market, packsaddle. That's our generation usin' the mechanisms of power to vote ourselves largesse at the expense of the young.

 

Da notion that young folks aren't capable (and that therefore us old folks have to control 'em and tell 'em what to do) is part and parcel with the prevailing trend.

 

Beavah

 

[SeattlePioneer]

In another ten years I predict that the 'boomer generation that began by promoting the slogan "don't trust anyone over thirty" will wind up seeing the wisdom of promoting a program of government supported ancestor worship.

 

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

Ummm. Forty years ago by age 22 I had participated in election campaigns, public demonstrations of all kinds, had a BA in political Science, attended major party caucuses, district and state conventions, supported and opposed changes in laws and initiative campaigns.

 

My nephew is currently a Sophomore in college and plans to major in political science. He has done pretty much none of these things to my knowledge, and the only political issue I've ever heard him discuss is his preference for vegetarianism.

 

The Tea Party movement of older Americans captured a generous amount of control over the Republican party and came fairly close to nominating one of its own as the party nominee for President.

 

The agenda of the OWS movement was mostly about getting into fights with the police and was characterized by an explosion in the rat population where ever it camped out.

 

The young generation seems pretty helpless in political skill and energy compared with their wily elders. That will cost 'em.

[Lisabob]

Well I dunno, folks. I teach a lot of first & second year college students, who are typically 18-19-20 years old.

 

"Kids these days"...sure, some of them ARE lazy ingrates who can't tell up from down. And yep, I've had a few calls from mommies and daddies, trying to tell me how I will treat their little darlings (yeah, that works....heh heh).

 

But in general, I really have a lot of respect for these young adults. They are full of curiosity about the world and their place in it. I have had the pleasure of having many students who are bright, engaged, thoughtful, and extremely hard working. I've taught many who are in school, and succeeding, despite tremendous obstacles in their lives. I have many former students who went on to do great things, and whose experiences I continue to use as motivation and examples for my current students.

 

So I kind of think it is like any group - you've got the strong, motivated types, and then you've got some slackers who haven't figured it out yet. Don't tell me that this wasn't true "back in the day" when you all were young, too? I know for sure that it was for my generation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

I tend to agree with Lisa. "...sure, some of them ARE lazy ingrates who can't tell up from down." ...and in my experience, not very many of them either. I have NEVER had a call from a parent. One email. I politely informed that parent of the concept (and legal requirement) of privacy. That student was just fine.

 

I concede that the students I come into contact with may be different from students in other institutions...and probably not representative of the population overall. But with that inescapable bias to my sample:

 

I consider the students that come through my courses to be, on average, far better prepared and far more highly-motivated...and far more focused than what I experienced among my peers at a similar school back in the '60/70 time frame. Yes, we protested, we were active in all sorts of things having to do with racial and social justice. And while I don't see these students as being similarly active, I don't fault them for it. How can I fault them for being focused on their own specific goals for their lives? How could I judge that somehow my generation got it right and these students are getting it wrong? It makes me proud to walk into these classrooms and see those bright minds ready to take their place in life. It is one of the few reasons I have to be optimistic about the future.

[Basementdweller]

There is a lot of things we do wrong that affects the following generations....

 

 

How much do you use antibotics???

Do you go to the doctor for every little sniffle or ache?

Do you pay for health insurance?

How much laundry detergent do you use?

Do you line dry your clothing when possible?

How many Tv's and computers in your home???

Are they all on at the same time???

Paper, plastic or reusable?

Reusable water bottles or single from the grocery store??

How much fertilizer and weedkiller on your yard????

How big is your House?

How far do you commute to work?

What kind of car or truck do you drive? is it the best choice for your life style

How much driving not work related do you do???

 

On and on

 

 

Then we get into the financial burden we are currently heaping on our kids?

Are you saving for retirement???

 

All of this impacts our children and every single generation to come.......

 

The best quote related to this is something along the lines of the Planet is on loan to us from our Children.

 

 

Had three go for ice cream last night.....One out sick.....boys are doin good.

 

 

 

 

[sailingpj]

I think the reason that a lot of you aren't seeing a whole lot of atavism from the under 25 group is that most of it is happening online. I see a lot more of the political chit chat happening online versus in person. I think that is actually a better system. It allows for a lot more free debate, and it allows people to provide sources for their information, and you get to hear from a lot wider range of people. Facebook is not only used for people to talk about the mundane things in their life. Look at the response online to things like SOPA, PIPA, and ACTA. Whatever you personally believe about those pieces of legislation, the word got out on the internet very quickly, and there was massive debate about them.

 

I also think that things are moving faster. Take the civil rights movement, that took years. Due to peoples ability to communicate so rapidly now it does not take as long for things to happen, so when do happen they happen fast. In internet time a month may as well be a year.

 

I am also just going to leave this here.

http://www.youthrights.org/issues/curfew/curfew-faq/

[CalicoPenn]

I read the article and have decided that it's nothing but whining by an under 35er who has no idea what net worth means or how the average middle class person builds net worth.

 

"In 1984, American breadwinners who were sixty-five and over made ten times as much as those under thirty-five. The year Obama took office, older Americans made almost forty-seven times as much as the younger generation."

 

What the writer here is comparing is relative net worth (though the sloppy writing leaves an impression that he could be talking salary - does Esquire not have any editors). Anyone with even the barest understanding of personal economics will understand that +65ers will have a greater net worth than -35ers. They'll also understand that for most people, their net worth is tied up in their homes, and its not the value of your home (which, until you sell your home, is just a fantasy number) that determines net worth but your equity in your home (the amount of principle you've paid) and that most people's net worth builds at a greater rate after the age of 50, when kids are starting to leave college, mortgages are being paid off (or the interest/principle equation flips building up more equity in your home at a faster rate then first starting out (for those unfamiliar, many, if not most, mortgages are set up so you pay more interest than principle at first (banks like to make sure they get their money first) and eventually you start paying more principle than interest)), and 401K plans are fuller. One might be tempted to suggest that higher salaries has something to do with it, but that's generally only if the person sinks more into their 401k's or starts investing in the stock market - one would think that the savings rates would be greater but NPR reported a few months ago that the average 55 year old's savings isn't much more than the average 25 year olds.

 

The writer is quick to blame government for all the woes of the greater discrepancy but it's mostly due to greater housing prices (25 years ago, the median price for a home was about 80K, todays it about 212K) so when you bought a home in 1984, you paid less, likely had a greater initial equity investment, and the value of your home has increased by a factor of about 2.5 since your purchase - if you buy a home now, you're paying more, may have had a much lower initial equity investment, and you haven't paid enough of your mortgage to build up more equity and haven't owned it long enough to increase in value.

 

We also can't discount that college students are graduating with greater debt due to increased costs of attending college - and it's not just because tuition has gone up - we also have to take into account that over the past 10 years or so, more folks than ever before are considering grad school as a primary focus after graduation rather than a job, and that students are taking out larger student loans than they used to so that they can live a lifestyle they're used to from home. Let's not forget that there is a significant number of people in "Gen Y" that are delaying starting careers and families to pursue other interests after college and that's going to drop that average as well.

 

What's more interesting to me is the comparison of the 65+ folks from 1984 to today. The average net worth for this group was about 120K and now it's about 170K - in 25 years, it's only increased by 50K - to make matters worse, that 120K of 1984 dollars, adjusted for current, is about 225K - so today's 65+ folks have actually lost ground over the past 25 years - evidence, I think, of a greater overall war on the Middle Class.

 

 

[SMT224]

Along similar lines, and appropriate to the evolving discussion in this post...

 

http://www.good.is/post/are-private-schools-stifling-american-innovation/

 

This article focuses on private schools, but could apply to the overall approach to kids in general by parents and others wanting everyone to be a winner. The article concludes...

 

"The result is a generation with no experience overcoming obstacles. Research shows that failure and struggle are crucial to learning and success, but if young people grow up without problems to fix, if they're not forced to learn critical thinking skills and how to tap their creativity to solve challenges, they stop innovating.

And that, in turn, hurts the United States' abilities to compete with its global peers. Kids growing up in China, India, and other emerging economies, Wolf writes, are being "intellectually toughened" by their experiences with "demanding teachers, a tradition of educational authority undiluted by consumerism, rigorous standards, and the hardships of economic stringency." So although American parents think they're giving their children every advantage by removing adversity from school, they may actually be destroying the qualities that set students up for success. If the trend continues, she writes, "the rest of the world is about to eat American kids' lunch."