Trayvon Martin

[JMHawkins]

Regardless of whether Zimmerman was a racist yahoo or Martin a thug who found more trouble than he was looking for, outsiders being idiots doesn't help anything. Spike Lee, the famous director, was part of a group of people who (re-)tweeted Zimmerman's home address to the world. Only, it was the wrong address. The address he publicized as Zimmerman's instead belongs to an elderly couple in their 70's with no connection to anyone in the case. They are now afraid for their lives and have already gotten suspicious mail.

 

Perhaps that's a sign that we should take some time and chill out on this issue. Too many people across the country are coming into this with their positions already decided based on political affiliation, treating facts as nothing more than stage props. We should aim to be better than that.

[CalicoPenn]

"or Martin a thug who found more trouble than he was looking for"

 

So where does this idea that Martin was a thug come from? Just because some jack-a-ninnies are attempting to smear Martin's reputation in trying to justify their support of Zimmerman and/or the laws that have led to this mess, doesn't mean we should be accepting and re-broadcasting such smears. Geraldo declares that any black or hispanic youth wearing a hoodie is likely to be a thug and people accept that instead of thinking Geraldo is just plain stupid? Having an empty "marijuana" baggie in a school backpack makes one a thug? Heck, in the 70's, it was likely that 15% of the lockers at my white-bread suburban high school had full baggies of marijuana - were my classmates thugs?

 

So what's going to be the next charge against Trayvon - that he colored outside the lines when he was in kindergarten?

 

Was there a rush to judgement in calling Zimmerman a racist? Yes - but the cure to that is not to then start trying to call Zimmerman's victim a thug.

[perdidochas]

This is one of those situations that everybody needs to shut up about until the whole story is known. Nothing good for justice is happening with the media circus and the right and left wing commentators all putting their spin on it. I feel for those folks that were misidentified as Zimmerman's parents.

[acco40]

The proof that racism is still rampant is the fact that folks who have no way of knowing the facts still try to glean the "truth" from the various media snippets to try and "prove" their belief.

 

I have no idea who was at fault but best guess is both. Our society (USA) is so caught up in race and no wonder. Give a stack of photos to a child, say a four year old. The photos are of adult and children's faces and ask them to sort them in to two piles. Some will sort by gender. Some will sort by race. Some, by age. Some will sort by what appears to be "random" by the observer. What is the adult reaction to this? The four year old gets "vibes" by the adults that for some reason sorting by race is wrong. So, what they process is that somehow something must be wrong or mysterious about race.

 

How many of you have had your young son or daughter notice something different about someone and utter something embarrassing? Heck, I remember my son pointing to someone in a grocery store and exclaiming loudly to me, "Dad that lady is really fat!" My son had no malice in his statement (and she was really fat) and did not have the social graces to know that society frowned on such exclamations.

 

I don't remember the fact myself but my mother told me the story about when we moved from Baltimore to Denver. The time period was the late 50s (less racial mixing back then) and as a three year old I had never seen a black person before. One of the gentleman from the moving company was very dark skinned black and I saw him and stated (without malice but out of complete ignorance) to my mother, look mom, a monkey. Well, you can guess my mother's response. She was quite embarrassed but took the opportunity to explain to me and my brother (mom, my brother and I are all red heads) that, "Some people are pink like us and some people are brown like that man." Well, that satisfied my curiosity and that was that. The mover, on the other hand, got a big kick out of the fact that my mother used pink and brown as opposed to white and black to describe us. To a child, pink and brown was more correct.

 

Fast forward a few years later (I was 5 and it was the early 60s and we lived in Arizona) and one of my friends was black. We mostly played outside but one day for some reason, I went inside his house with him. I was amazed (again, 5 yr old perspective but a future engineer with an analytical mindset) to find out that not only was my friend black, a rare occurrence from my vantage point, so was his mother, father, brothers and sisters! What were the odds of that?!!

 

Yes, sometimes ignorance is bliss.

 

To get back on topic, why did this murder generate so much publicity? IMO, it is simple, it sells.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[moosetracker]

acco40 - "why did this murder generate so much publicity? IMO, it is simple, it sells."

 

It sells true, but I think it is what one newscast described also. It is a "perfect storm". I think were I black, I too would be upset about the neccessity to have to teach my child how to conduct themselves in public not to raise suspicions.. While most of us white folks are oblivious to this, and under the notion this country has come a long way in racial equality..

 

It is a perfect story for the blacks to make it know we white folks are delusional..

 

I for one did not hear the story in the news until about 20 days after the event. I am not from Florida.. I do not think the national new picked up on the story, until it became a city that thousands were headed to for large protests.. The national news is more about that perfect storm. I am sure in Florida and neighboring states the news was closer to the time of the death. And that news was what gathered the thousands to the area for a protest.. But the thousands who came, did so to make sure it did become a National news story.

 

There is much in the news about both the Travon Martin story, as there is the story of how the blacks of this country still don't feel secure about equality.. They are eye-opening stories, but could not come out without a catalyst..

 

For me, The stand your ground law has flaws.. Law enforcement did not handle the situation right.. There were two men who (from my point of view) neither acted wisely.. Zimmerman should not have had a gun, and did things to make Travon suspicious of him, as he followed with his own suspicions..

 

Tampa Turtle was on a jury, for something that could have been a "stand-your-ground" issue.. It was not a "Let's not investigate, it's a stand-your-ground" issue.. Had they taken him in and done a complete investigation, then the suspicions and anger would not have rose to the heights it is at today.. Zimmerman would not be in hiding for his life, just might have spent some long not so plesent hours at the police station and maybe have had to go through a trial in a case that was not blown out of proportion..

 

If he is not put on trial, because they do find that he was in fear for his life (after instigating the situation that put him in that predicament) then I think it will mean not only witness protection, but some plastic surgery before he can enter witness protection.. All could have been prevented if the police conducted the investigation as if it was a more serious matter then someone running over a bicycle that was left in a driveway.

[moosetracker]

Well I stand corrected.. With the newest story..

 

At least the police at the scene found it important enough to take Zimmerman to the police station, and it at least rustled interest for the police chief to come out on a Sunday night for it, and the state Attorney was at least contacted for a decision to hold him or not.. But this new video pretty much seems like Zimmerman was not that badly hurt.. Also as stated, if he shot while Travon was on top of him fighting to get control of the gun, there is no blood of Travon on him..

 

This story is just very, very weird.. I don't know what to make of it.

[Lisabob]

"To get back on topic, why did this murder generate so much publicity?"

 

And can somebody tell me under what circumstances a child's murder should NOT have our attention? That could have been my child, or yours, or any of the boys any of us have worked with in scouting, in our communities, in churches, in schools, etc., over the years.

 

This unarmed child was shot at point blank range by a man who chased him through the neighborhood in a car, even after being told by officials to leave him alone. Whatever else did or did not happen, that much is pretty much undisputed, and by itself, should be enough to spur grave concerns in our society. This was a terrible and utterly senseless tragedy.

 

 

 

 

[moosetracker]

Lisabob - This unarmed child was shot at point blank range by a man who chased him through the neighborhood in a car, even after being told by officials to leave him alone. Whatever else did or did not happen, that much is pretty much undisputed,

 

 

Nope, this is disputed by Zimmermon's account. First off alot of the following was done on foot.. But Zimmermon says after told to stop following, he did and went back to his car.. Then had to get back out of the car to look at the street post to figure out where he was. And then Trayvon came up to him, and argued with him then attacked him..

 

Well, All of Zimmermon's account is disputed of course. You also might argue it, but there is a different account that is presented..

[Eamonn]

It was and has never been my intention to in any way try and guess or second guess what happened that tragic night.

Maybe that's not possible?

For me, while of course the fact that someone ended up dead is truly tragic, this thread was more about looking at my feelings on race.

I have many ex-Scouts who aren't white. We keep in contact, the fact that they are from Africa, Jamaica, India or else-where really has never mattered to me.

I work fairly closely with two African-American men. One I like and get on with very well, the other I have very little time for. He just isn't a very nice person. He wouldn't be very nice if he were Chinese, Indian or white.

I treat people, all people as I find them. Race, religion and ethnics are not something that I've ever really worried about.

Maybe at times I am guilty of buying into the way some groups are portrayed.

If I came across a bar where there was a lot of motor-cycles parked outside, I really don't think I'd want to nip in for a quick beer.

I do think that the French and French people are very arrogant.

I find that the Irish are very hospitable even if some of them do drink a little bit too much at times.

Eamonn's list of how he feels about some people and some races is fairly long. But even with all of this I don't think that I'm guilty of trying to put everyone into a pigeon hole.

I think that many of us want or try and put people into neat little groups.

We or at least I, tend to think that some people by profession are to be trusted and respected.

It takes me a little longer to accept some people because of how they might look.

I'm not going to warm up as quickly to someone covered in tattoos with bits of metal hanging from all parts of his body as it does to someone who I see as being normal.

So while I was happy to think that I wasn't a racist, I'm now thinking that I do have my own prejudices and this can and might mean that I act differently toward others.

A big deal has been made of how Trayvon Martin was dressed.

My son owns and wears a lot of hooded sweatshirts, so in theory the way someone is dressed shouldn't make any difference. But if it was late at night and a big hairy guy came toward me wearing clothes that looked like he belonged to a motor-cycle gang? I'd be worried and want to get out of where I was at in a hurry. Even though the guy might be a really nice fellow.

I know a lot of convicted murderers. These guys come in every size, every age and every color.

I've had dealings with a fair number of gang members, black guys, white guys and Hispanics. In my dealings the blacks outnumber the others but the Hispanics are a lot better organized.

It's kinda strange when I talk and deal with these guys we talk and deal with what they have done as something that happens "Outside". Even though gangs are a problem on the "Inside".

Deep down I know and firmly believe that grouping people together is just wrong and that there are good and bad people no matter what race what creed or anything else. -Yes even the French!

I just need to keep reminding myself.

Ea.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm with Lisabob, eh?

 

The issue is that some nut job stalked and shot a kid because he was a kid. Again, it could have been any of our scouts who happen to be wearing a hoodie in the rain walking down to the corner store for a soda during a commercial break from the Final Four. By all accounts, Trayvon Martin ran away, and then opted to stand his ground. Under Florida law, being pursued by an armed man for no apparent reason, he was perfectly within his rights to beat Zimmerman to a pulp.

 

That's the flaw in the law, eh? Both parties in a confused situation can act in accord with the law to harm each other. The law authorizes brutal or deadly battles in confused circumstances. It's worth rememberin' that the detective on the scene recommended arresting and charging Zimmerman, but the county prosecutor opted not to because of the law.

 

This is about justice and the treatment of kids. Who among us wouldn't be beside ourselves if some armed man chased and harmed our kid because just because he didn't like his looks?

 

That havin' been said, the even truer tragedy that should offend all sensible folks is that black parents tell us that they worry about their kids gettin' caught up in such "confused circumstances" all the time. That's no way for fellow citizens to live. How would it be to worry every time our kid went out that somethin' like this could happen unless we dressed him in a suit and tie (and perhaps even then)? We wouldn't stand for it! Nor should we now.

 

Beavah

 

[Tampa Turtle]

Moose is right in that the story sells...especially the early story with the lad's pictures...he was very telegenic. That helps. And Stand Your Ground is growing in controversy in Florida. So it got traction.

 

Clothing wise what is right is not always prudent; that issue is still raging over the Sl*t Walks with women. I had this issue with my 13 year old son. He loves to dress in Camo on the weekend from head to toe. Has the hat, jacket, pants, web gear --the whole deal. Wants to wear to the crowded city park to play with his friends. Then says he wants to bring his old play gun that looks like a M-16. I tell him no. He is no longer a little kid and some guy dressed all in camo carrying a toy gun (which you cant have in a City park here anyway) is going to scare a few folks when they see him lurking through the woods. Now I got to worry about some guy who "stands his ground" and shoots him by mistake. Yeah he has a right on what to wear but is it prudent? No. Because some people are prejudiced and think all camo wearing white males must be crazed neo-nazi's ready to cause a mass casualty event.

 

(Funny thing is you can carry a *real* gun to a City park but not a *toy* gun.)

 

 

 

 

[Eagledad]

Sadly Eamonn, we arent allowed to express our feelings anymore on these things for fear of being judged politically out of step. I remember when I was 16 and listening to rock and roll on the radio in my car. Between songs, the DJ came on a poured out soul from finding out about the boy who had been stabbed to death in a local Oklahoma City High School. Most folks were hurt or saddened by the event. It wasnt a common event and the city was in shock. Yes, it did happen at a basically black school, but it still was a shock that nobody could explain.

 

Believe it or not, I havent been keeping track of the Trayvon Martin tragedy. Ive been pretty busy and stayed away from the news. Oh I hear few tidbits here and there because news is in everything, even the scouting forum. But the tidbits are more about how a couple is in fear of their life from some famous black person (I dont remember who) tweeting to get revenge at their address or how both the democrats and republicans are politizing the news to their advantage. Ive never tweeted in my life, so I dont really understand that news and as far a demos and repubs in D.C., Im taking a break from that news. I havent even read your thread until this morning and the first thing I read is Lisabobs account of the tragedy. I havent heard much, but I didnt hear it her way, so my first response is Of course she sees it that way, she is a liberal. I admit that I was ashamed of myself once I thought that and regretted even getting into the thread. My apologies Lisabob. As bad as I feel about the tragedy, Im angrier at my response. I sure I didnt need to start my day that way..

 

I was having a discussion with my mom last night and we somehow got on to how politics has so permeated our culture that nobody is safe to think out loud anymore because somebody will be offended, even if what we said was just grieving out loud. Politics has become such a part of our culture that even third graders are taught in school about different acceptable lifestyles. Our kids have become pawns for long term poltical goals. I confessed to mom that my grandkids will never know the innocence of growing up that I was fortunate to experience. My mother didnt know how to respond.

 

So I wonder, can we not have a discussion of a tragedy without somehow taking sides like the stabbing that shook Oklahoma City when I was 16? You know I dont think we can.

 

I read your first post on this subject Eamonn and I see your anguish. I think we all agree, I think. Sadly, the general mood of the county doesnt allow us to express ourselves right now. The ambitious political agendas have polluted our souls and there isnt enough room in us to mourn.

 

I've had enough of this subject.

 

Barry

 

[OldGreyEagle]

But then again, how old was Billy the Kid when he was shot by Pat Garrett?

 

Was Billy the Kid a good guy or a bad guy? Were the Regulators of the Lincoln County war anymore a Neighborhood watch group? Or at least what the western frontier would look at as a neighborhood watch?

 

At the Shootout at the OK Corral, were the Earps and Company rightgeous or were the Clantons just being bullied by authority? We have many stories from each side each making the other guy the bad guy.

 

Violence and tragedy is not new, neither is a distortion of facts nor is each side having a "Certain point of view" (quick movie reference there) that defends their actions.

 

We do need to move to a place where such events are limited and we all have confidence on the actions of others, and there lies the rub, we have to trust other people to do the right thing(This message has been edited by oldgreyeagle)

[JoeBob]

Trayvon Martin was not a child. He was 17.

 

The photos used by most of the media were of a younger, smaller Trayvon. And why not? The media can't sell stories that they can't sensationalize.

 

Remember that the liberal media are hugely biased against guns. The righteous use of a firearm in a self-defense scenario is never reported fairly, if at all.

 

The Martin-Zimmerman confrontation may or may not be a justified shooting. On the scale of Black and White judgements, this one is looking dark gray. So you can expect the media to ignore that Zimmerman is half Hispanic and that Martin is almost 18.

 

If the media thought that they could get away with it, this story would be reported as a stark white skinhead neo-nazi mowing down African American kindergartners with a full auto Uzi during recess so that he could steal their PB&Js.

[Basementdweller]

Just saw video of zimmerman in cuffs from the night of the shooting......For a guy who was afraid for his life and having his nose broken and head pounded into the sidewalk he looked amazingly well.

 

Just sayin