Trayvon Martin

[packsaddle]

stand your ground

 

Except this case had nothing to do with Florida's "stand your ground" law ... it's hard to retreat from a threat when someone is beating you to a pulp and smashing your head against the pavement.

Next time I find some hunter on my property, SYG has me completely covered. Nice.

[Pack18Alex]

stand your ground

 

Except this case had nothing to do with Florida's "stand your ground" law ... it's hard to retreat from a threat when someone is beating you to a pulp and smashing your head against the pavement.

I see SYG it as a response to the government by tort we were suffering with... where a perfectly legal action becomes a nightmare because of the legal system making it possible for a well funded opponent to run up a 6 figure legal bill on your behalf to defend yourself.

 

Almost none of the gun crime we have is related to licensed concealed weapons, and SYG only applies if the weapon on legal, therefore a CCW permit holder. If you carry a CCW, you are registered and finger printed, in a way the general public is not. It may seem like a license to kill, but it also lets those get the benefit of the doubt in return for voluntarily registering with the state.

[Renax127]

An all white jury found Zimmerman not guilty after he killed a kid for being black.

I highly doubt that Zimmerman shot the Trayvon Martin because he was black.

 

 

 

I think folks are forgetting a few things and not thinking analytically. One, as jblake47 and others have tried to point out - jury trials such as these do not have an objective to prove someone innocent. The judges direction to the jury was to determine if George Zimmerman acted in self-defense or in legalese - if the death of Trayvon Martin resulted from the justifiable use of deadly force and that a person is justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself. The jury was also instructed to judge Zimmerman by the circumstances by which he was surrounded at the time the force was used, that the danger facing George Zimmerman need not have been actual; however, to justify the use of deadly force, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force.

 

 

 

There was conflicting testimony - there was very different testimony by several witnesses stating who was the aggressor. So, for me - concluding that there was reasonable doubt was the correct verdict. That doesn't mean that Zimmerman acted properly. Also, I believe the jury was 100% female, as was the Circuit judge and no one is claiming gender issues? (It was not 100% white as some have claimed. Five where white and one Hispanic.) The fact that Trayvon Martin did not simply go home or that Zimmerman should have stayed in his car or not followed Martin are irrelevant to the case at hand. It did not matter how the confrontation came to be - if Zimmerman was profiling, if Martin was looking for a fight - it only mattered that when Zimmerman fired a bullet through Trayvon's heart, was the appearance of danger so real that a reasonably cautious and prudent person believe that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force?

 

 

I do pretty much agree that Zimmerman acted improperly, but not illegally. It would have been better for all concerned, if he had stayed in his vehicle. That said, it's easy to say that in hindsight, and not living in a neighborhood that has been burglarized several times.

This case had nothing to do with Stand Your Ground. Zimmerman did not use the STG in his defense. They argued strict Self Defense.

[packsaddle]

stand your ground

 

Except this case had nothing to do with Florida's "stand your ground" law ... it's hard to retreat from a threat when someone is beating you to a pulp and smashing your head against the pavement.

OK, in what states does SYG only apply to CCW permit holders? That sure isn't true in this state.

Edit to add: I've checked TN, NC, SC and GA so far and none of them mention anything about CCW in the law. Nor is this even mentioned in the descriptions or discussions. Looking further, there are plenty of states that allow open carry. Nearly all of them allow you to carry a long gun.

[Pack18Alex]

stand your ground

 

Except this case had nothing to do with Florida's "stand your ground" law ... it's hard to retreat from a threat when someone is beating you to a pulp and smashing your head against the pavement.

SYG only applies to legal firearms. If you have an illegal gun, or a gun in an area you are not legally permitted to, SYG does not apply. In Florida, open carry is prohibited. If you purchase a firearm and are transporting it home without a CCW, there are rules for transporting and storing it. Once inside your home, you do not need a CCW.

 

So why SYG makes no reference to a CCW, in states like Florida without open carry, it's defacto CCW. Within your home it's Castle Doctrine, NOT SYG, and Castle Doctrine is dramatically stronger... In the case of Castle Doctrine, you're presumed to have a reasonable fear, whereas in SYG, you need to demonstrate the reasonable fear.

 

I'll admit I'm not entirely sure what the long gun carry rules are in Florida, I believe it is slightly looser, based upon a presumption of hunting.

 

So if you are in a public place, and standing your ground, it's almost always with a concealed weapon. I'm sure we can envision scenarios where a non CCW permit holder could stand their ground, but it's pretty theoretical.

[packsaddle]

stand your ground

 

Except this case had nothing to do with Florida's "stand your ground" law ... it's hard to retreat from a threat when someone is beating you to a pulp and smashing your head against the pavement.

I guess you're specifically addressing Florida while I'm addressing other states. There ARE state-by-state differences. BTW, Florida does prohibit open carry of long guns, except for hunting and other specific activities.

[King Ding Dong]

stand your ground

 

Except this case had nothing to do with Florida's "stand your ground" law ... it's hard to retreat from a threat when someone is beating you to a pulp and smashing your head against the pavement.

Pardon my ignorance, but are there really places you can just walk down the street carrying a shotgun ?

[Basementdweller]

my neighbor, joe the retired mail man sits on his front porch with a loaded shotgun every evening when it is warm.... Such is life in the hood.

[King Ding Dong]

my neighbor, joe the retired mail man sits on his front porch with a loaded shotgun every evening when it is warm.... Such is life in the hood.

He must hate Mosquitos more than I do.

[Basementdweller]

my neighbor, joe the retired mail man sits on his front porch with a loaded shotgun every evening when it is warm.... Such is life in the hood.

Naw, he is a character, smokes Anthony and Cleopatra cigars, takes all night to smoke one......no tv sits out there and watches the goings on. Gotta be in his 70's.... I stop and get him a 12 of Schaefers light the way home from work on most fridays......He can talk......as long as you will listen he will talk.......

[packsaddle]

stand your ground

 

Except this case had nothing to do with Florida's "stand your ground" law ... it's hard to retreat from a threat when someone is beating you to a pulp and smashing your head against the pavement.

Earth to KDD! Yeah, there are LOTS of places, whole states. Probably not a good idea to try entering a bank like that though, regardless of the state, lol.

[packsaddle]

my neighbor, joe the retired mail man sits on his front porch with a loaded shotgun every evening when it is warm.... Such is life in the hood.

I know the guy, or at least characters who were similar to what you described. The chewed end of that cigar is one of my definitions of 'obscenity'. Does he look like Clint?

[Pack18Alex]

stand your ground

 

Except this case had nothing to do with Florida's "stand your ground" law ... it's hard to retreat from a threat when someone is beating you to a pulp and smashing your head against the pavement.

When I looked into it a few years ago, I was actually somewhat shocked that Florida wasn't an open carry state... Florida tends to like to preempt gun regulations at the state level, and we have a VERY diverse state. We have a couple of enclaves with tons of transplants from the Northeast or Midwest, a chunk of the state that is part of the deep south, and the Miami area which is as cosmopolitan as it comes. I'm pretty sure people in the greater Orlando area and north would be happy with an open carry situation, while Miami is terrified of it.

 

Legal citizens with concealed weapons make liberals uneasy, but don't actually create war zones. Open carry in a rural area is fine, open carry in an area with tons of undocumented residents, multiple language communities that don't communicate, etc, is a recipe for disaster.

 

An armed society may be a polite society, but an armed black society, armed hispanic society (Spanish speaking only), and armed creole community, all coexisting in a small area might not be polite, because they don't understand each other.

 

But SYG and what it means definitely depends on the rest of the state's laws.

[packsaddle]

An all white jury found Zimmerman not guilty after he killed a kid for being black.

I highly doubt that Zimmerman shot the Trayvon Martin because he was black.

 

 

 

I think folks are forgetting a few things and not thinking analytically. One, as jblake47 and others have tried to point out - jury trials such as these do not have an objective to prove someone innocent. The judges direction to the jury was to determine if George Zimmerman acted in self-defense or in legalese - if the death of Trayvon Martin resulted from the justifiable use of deadly force and that a person is justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself. The jury was also instructed to judge Zimmerman by the circumstances by which he was surrounded at the time the force was used, that the danger facing George Zimmerman need not have been actual; however, to justify the use of deadly force, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force.

 

 

 

There was conflicting testimony - there was very different testimony by several witnesses stating who was the aggressor. So, for me - concluding that there was reasonable doubt was the correct verdict. That doesn't mean that Zimmerman acted properly. Also, I believe the jury was 100% female, as was the Circuit judge and no one is claiming gender issues? (It was not 100% white as some have claimed. Five where white and one Hispanic.) The fact that Trayvon Martin did not simply go home or that Zimmerman should have stayed in his car or not followed Martin are irrelevant to the case at hand. It did not matter how the confrontation came to be - if Zimmerman was profiling, if Martin was looking for a fight - it only mattered that when Zimmerman fired a bullet through Trayvon's heart, was the appearance of danger so real that a reasonably cautious and prudent person believe that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force?

 

 

I do pretty much agree that Zimmerman acted improperly, but not illegally. It would have been better for all concerned, if he had stayed in his vehicle. That said, it's easy to say that in hindsight, and not living in a neighborhood that has been burglarized several times.

Renax127, The instructions to the jury included instructions about SYG. The jurors who have come forward afterwards have disagreed with you.

[packsaddle]

stand your ground

 

Except this case had nothing to do with Florida's "stand your ground" law ... it's hard to retreat from a threat when someone is beating you to a pulp and smashing your head against the pavement.

Same response to Peregrinator, The instructions to the jury included instructions about SYG. The jurors who have come forward afterwards have disagreed with you.

 

Look, there are some facts. 1) GZ ignored the police advice. 2) He left his vehicle and pursued Trayvon. 3) Trayvon was alarmed about a "creep" who was pursuing him late on a rainy night.

 

If we apply SYG evenly, Trayvon was justified in 'standing his ground'. Moreover, he was unarmed and if he thought this creep meant him ill will he was, under SYG, allowed to use whatever force he thought necessary to protect himself. He was under no obligation to retreat. GZ, on the other hand, had no reason to fear for his life until he actually confronted Trayvon, perhaps emboldened by the knowledge of his concealed weapon (which Trayvon knew nothing about, hence the scream just before he was murdered).

 

Yes, Trayvon made the mistake of exercising SYG against a creep who was packing. GZ became the aggressor when he left the car. He controlled everything thereafter. To think that Trayvon somehow 'deserved' what happened or was the guilty party in all this, is obscene.