American Heritage Girls

[SR540Beaver]

shortridge: "I'm not sure I get your point re: LDS. The church has adopted Boy Scouts as its young men's program, and agrees to abide by BSA's values, principles, practices and rules as part of that. I don't see any comparison to AHG there."

 

Actually, LDS didn't adopt the Boy Scout program, they ADAPTED it. There is a world of difference between those two words. There is Boy Scouting and there is LDS Boy Scouting and there are differences. Tell you what, go try to volunteer at an LDS unit and see if they allow you in. They won't. Why? Because it isn't just a scout unit, it is a program element of their church and you aren't a member.

[CHLees3rd]

Scoutingagain,

 

The point is that the BSA is favoring the AHG over most other religiously exclusive groups with which it has partnered. How many other non-BSA groups have a weeklong conference dedicated to them at Philmont? How many of them are allowed to attend our training courses? I do not have a problem with them joining up with another group when there is the potential for new BSA members; however, I do have a problem with the BSA showing favoritism towards one group over others when many within the BSA can not join unconditionally (i.e. daughters of non-Christian BSA families who want the Scouting experience without the overtly Christian overtones.)

 

Chazz Lees

 

[scoutingagain]

So what other groups that have requested this kind of relationship have been refused by the BSA? I really don't know the answer, but that would be the issue.

 

If GSUSA wanted a similare association and the the BSA refused I could understand. But it's my understanding that in the past it was the BSA that made overtures towards GSUSA in terms of partnering at some level and it was the GSUSA that said thanks but no thanks.

 

 

 

SA

[SeattlePioneer]

It would be amusing if it weren't pathetic to see experienced Scouters nitpicking AHG and LDS because they are religious groups that don't meet the exacting religious standards of those Scouters.

 

And it's especially amusing when those Scouter's complain that these groups aren't "tolerant" enough!

[BadenP]

scoutingagain

 

The GSUSA patterned their program much closer to the Girl Guides of Great Britian than the BSA did to Baden Powells Boy Scout program. One big difference was the emphasis in the BSA on religion and "a scout is reverent" which is not emphasized very much in any of these programs, except the BSA. BP and his wife wanted to have the British boy scouts and Girl guides totally open to all youth and they knew any religious requirements or emphasis would cause division and bitterness in their organizations. While the GSUSA has decided to closely follow the Girl Guides program and open it to all youth without any religious emphasis. The BSA on the other hand early on started to have alliances with Christian organizations including the YMCA, LDS, etc, and they added "Reverent" into the scout law, unlike BP's group.

 

You may not know this but up through the 1960's the Catholic Church did not sponsor the BSA and told their membership that the BSA was to be avoided since they required the boys to be away on Sundays camping and missing mass, which is a mortal sin, and they forced the boys to participate in ecumenical services, also a sin. As a boy I was raised Catholic and was a member of a troop sponsored by my school and the priest used to give my folks a bad time for allowing me to join such "a corrupting organization". As an ordained minister myself I can tell you that sometimes in a group of mixed faiths religion can be a very divisive thing. This AHG affiliation is just another example of pulling people apart rather than bringing them together.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

BadenP, I want to be sure I understand what you are saying,

 

Thats the Catholic Church through the 60's had an issue with the BSA?

 

The Roman Catholic parish I grew up in has a Boy Scout Troop that started in 1951, my father received the St Georgs Medal for his work in the Troop at the Seminary I was going to in 1968, its amzing that a CHurch that had no or little regard for the BSA would have changed its stance so quickly to come up with the St George medal in such a short period of time

 

http://www.bsatroop65-wd.org/

 

It was always chartered by the Holy Ghost which is a Catholic Church. Were we participating in an illicit organization at the time?

[Rooster7]

OGE,

 

BadenP's version of history and the actual facts are in conflict again. Look at this link, which I think is just a little bit more credible:

 

http://www.catholicscouting.org/NCCS_History/NCCS_Chronology/nccs_chronology.html

[OldGreyEagle]

Well now Rooster, with you providing this and Beavah's work (at times) defending the Catholic Church there may be somehting to this ecumenism I hear so much about.

 

I was in Cub Scouts at the Pack chartered by the Church and my mother was the Den Mother and one year was the Parish "women of the year" got her picture in the paper and everything. The picture was of her in her Den Mother uniform. For as long as I can remember as a kid, I always wanted to be a priest. Didnt stop wanting to be one until the summer between Junior and Senior Year in High School and in all that time no member of the clergy ever asked me to stop being a Boy Scout or to be "careful" of the BSA teachings. Once in 1968 the Rector of the Seminary hosted a Catholic Scout Retreat. I dont remember anyhting negative being said by him about the BSA

[SeattlePioneer]

I attend the Catholic church services at the parish which charters my pack for Scout Sunday each year. The 60ish Priest always endorses Scouting by noting that "I was a Boy Scout when I was a boy, and I turned out OK."

 

I think we have Baden P again swinging wildly with his last post.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Baden,

 

You certainly don't have to reveal this if you want, but what faith tradition do you follow? From many of the comments you've made, I'm guessing Unitarian Univeralist. I have no problem with that. I'm just wondering where you come up with ideas that mainstream Christian teachings are psuedo-Christianity. Knowing that UU draws from Christian teachings along with many other relgions, it just has me wondering if you are viewing Christianity thru that lens?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

My mother was a den mother when I was a cub scout (circa 1966 or so) and we were atheists.

[packsaddle]

As TheScout wrote a while back, "The purpose of religion isn't to bring people together."

 

Most of my UU friends claim NOT to be Christian.

[CHLees3rd]

Scoutingagain,

 

I guess the questions is did the AHG ask for a week long conference at Philmont or did the BSA offer Philmont up? If the AHG asked, then I wonder if the BSA would be willing for other group with which it has relationships to use Philmont. If the BSA proffered Philmont and it has never done so in the past, then I think someone in the BSA has an agenda for the AHG more so than it has with other partners. Regardless, I still think the BSA is into this relationship way too much than it should be and it is not a good fit for all of the BSA.

 

Chazz Lees

[MomWhoCamps]

"Riddle me this: Legal permanent residents can serve in the military and die for our country, but they're not American enough to be treasurer of their daughter's AHG unit. How much sense does that make?"

 

Probably about as much as 18 year-olds having to register for selective service but not being able to drink alcohol. Really...some things are red herrings and have been for years.

 

As for being anti-immigrant, the last time I checked, a lot of U.S. citizens are immigrants to this country. I think that you can say that you don't like the citizenship requirement, nor do you approve of it, but I really think that it's factually inaccurate to say that a citizenship requirement makes any organization anti-immigrant. I guess our government is anti-immigrant because we require citizenship to vote, right? How about the part of the Constitution that says that you must be born in this country to be the President of the United States? You want anti-immigrant, now THAT'S anti-immigrant. If AHG were requiring U.S. birth, I think you might have an argument, but that's not the case here.

[SR540Beaver]

Pack, I realize that. However, UU has it's origins in Christianity as evidenced by the links below. Given Baden's claim that the mainstream Christian beliefs represented in AHG are "pseudo-Christianity", it made me wonder if this is where he is coming from. My degree is in religion and I too spent some time in the ministry and I don't see anything on the AHG website that any Christian denomination, protestant or Catholic, would take such strong exception to.

 

http://www.uua.org/beliefs/welcome/index.shtml

 

In addition to holding different beliefs on spiritual topics, individual Unitarian Universalists may also identify with and draw inspiration from Atheism and Agnosticism, Buddhism, Christianity, Humanism, Judaism, Paganism, and other religious or philosophical traditions.

 

Our Unitarian Universalist faith has evolved through a long history, with theological origins in European Christian traditions. Today Unitarian Universalism is a non-creedal faith which allows individual Unitarian Universalists the freedom to search for truth on many paths. While our congregations uphold shared principles, individual Unitarian Universalists may discern their own beliefs about spiritual, ethical, and theological issues.

 

http://www.uua.org/beliefs/history/index.shtml

 

Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religious tradition that was formed from the consolidation of two different religions: Unitarianism and Universalism. Both began in Europe hundreds of years ago. In America, the Universalist Church of America was founded in 1793, and the American Unitarian Association in 1825. After consolidating in 1961, these faiths became the new religion of Unitarian Universalism through the Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA).

 

Both religions have long histories and have contributed important theological concepts that remain central to Unitarian Universalism. Originally, all Unitarians were Christians who didn't believe in the Holy Trinity of God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), but in the unity, or single aspect, of God. Later, Unitarian beliefs stressed the importance of rational thinking, a direct relationship with God, and the humanity of Jesus. Universalism emerged as a Christian denomination with a central belief in universal salvation; that is, that all people will eventually be reconciled with God.

 

Since the merger of the two denominations in 1961, Unitarian Universalism has nurtured its Unitarian and Universalist heritages to provide a strong voice for social justice and liberal religion.