More on the politics of Scouting...

[drmbear]

It's amazing how far from the original thread the latest posts have gotten. I know I had something relevant to say from what I was reading earlier, but then getting into the merits of the Venturers took the whole point elsewhere. Anyway, Scouting has several great things it does for youth: First is the outdoor program, and regardless of religious belief or sexual orientation, all boys should be able to participate and will benefit from the very best outdoor program for youth.

 

Second, Scouting has a long tradition of building citizenship, and it pains me greatly to see how far Scouting is straying from what I learned about citizenship as a Scout by more recently instituting policies of discrimination and hatred. It is religious division which creates suicide bombers (of the 9/11 like), murder and violence against those "different," racism, sexism, and more. The humanist kid may be athiest, but may also have a strong moral foundation, desire for social justice, and a driving commitment to service that would make him a great Scout and leader among men. The gay youth is already dealing with challenges of identity, but to be ostracized from his friends by a youth organization that should represent the ideal of good citizenship is a crime.

 

Finally, I believe Scouting provides a place for boys to grow into men. The skills and experiences build confidence and capability - I rarely come across a former Scout that is clueless on how to follow the directions and use screwdriver and pliars to assemble something out of a box (non-Scouts is another story). There is a reason so many of the astronauts were Scouts - because they learned to be resilient and make do with little or nothing. Was it Apollo 13 that made it back against odds partially because of Boy Scout ingenuity? A youth in our society, regardless of sexual orientation or religious beliefs, should be given the opportunities to be capable, to learn how to work shoulder-to-shoulder with anyone, and to learn not to pass judgement on another person until he has done so. BSA has stepped so far away from the idea of a true World Brotherhood of Scouting, a dream concept of our founder, that it is beyond comprehension to me. I'll never stop pushing those concepts in my own zone of influence, but it is hard when the underlying policies discriminate.

 

It wasn't that long ago in our country when the same kinds of stands were taken over race, and Scouting did the right thing there. How they ended up on the wrong side of this stand of discrimination makes no sense.

[perdidochas]

drmbear,

 

I don't think there's a problem with gay scouts being allowed to join BSA. The only objection to gay people in Scouts is for leaders. To some degree, it would be hard to sell a program where gay men are bringing male youths out to the wilderness. I, however, can see this changing.

 

In terms of atheists, there is no way that an honest atheist can join BSA as either a youth or leader. The Boy Scout Oath is pretty clear on that.

[packsaddle]

Perdidochas, I think there are quite a few Buddhists who are honest, atheist, AND members of BSA.

Do you know something I don't know?

[qwazse]

It is religious division which creates suicide bombers (of the 9/11 like), murder and violence against those "different," racism, sexism, and more

 

And here I thought it was rampant materialism and imperial secularism ....

 

Pack, problem is that as hard as Buddhists tell me they don't believe in God (because they think it means something Jewish or Christian), they act like they believe in God in the original sense of the word.

 

 

[qwazse]

Ooops triple post!(This message has been edited by Qwazse)

[qwazse]

Ooops double post.(This message has been edited by Qwazse)

[perdidochas]

My reading on the subject says that Buddhists are nontheists, rather than atheists. My definition of atheist is very strict (i.e. equivalent to strong atheist). Atheist means that that person absolutely believes that there is no god or gods.

[KC9DDI]

It is religious division which creates suicide bombers (of the 9/11 like)...

 

And here I thought it was rampant materialism and imperial secularism ....

 

I agree with qwaze. I think any "religious war" in modern times (and maybe even in ancient times) has more to do with secular politics, economics, natural resources and culture than with religion. I think it's just easier to win the support of otherwise apathetic people - and to stir them into a crazed frenzy - when you make them believe they're fighting for Almighty God, rather than something boring and secular like fair taxes or political representation.

[SeattlePioneer]

My own experience with people who traveled the road to bombing institutions with high explosives as part of a radical political agenda is that the motivation originates in frustration.

 

In 1967-68 I was involved with the SDS that organized a chapter at my high school. At the time, this was a radical mostly anti-Vietnam War group.

 

After I left, this group grew more frustrated when their political platform was ignored, and traveled the road of greater alienation from the society to revolutionary theories and a campaign of bombing in the early 1970s.

 

Just like President Obama's political adviser Bill Ayers.

 

Radicals tend to believe that the government is a threat to them. Revolutionaries tend to believe that the government is out to destroy them. If you believe the government is out to destroy you, using violent tactics can be rationalized as self defense.

 

When you get out from under the thrall of that revolutionary ideology, people can be constrained by social norms again.

[drmbear]

And then there is bombing of women's health clinics with the doctors as targets by folks claiming their Christianity as the reason. Division in the name of religion.

 

From what I've seen, most religions have the general foundational idea of being nice to one another, don't kill, general Scout ideals and values that grew in me during my time as a Scout. As a Scout I feel it is part of my task or mission to help others see how we can get along, find commonality, if in no other way than by setting that example to be interested in and respectful of others in their beliefs. When Scouting takes a stand to support division, that goes against everything I grew to believe is the purpose of Scouting. Even in the "methods of Scouting" we wear uniforms in part to remove barriers.

[JMHawkins]

Maybe it's time to move this to I&P

[packsaddle]

drmbear,

As TheScout wrote a while back, "The purpose of religion isn't to bring people together."

[BadenP]

pack

 

Excellent point in your last post. An institution claiming to being able to interpret and speak for God would cause so much discord and be at the root for most of the wars the world has and is still experiencing throughout time.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Beavah writes:

We also see it when school officials condone bullying of kids prayin' by the flagpole (the root of one of the first school shootings)

 

Which school shooting was that?

 

perdidochas writes:

My reading on the subject says that Buddhists are nontheists, rather than atheists. My definition of atheist is very strict (i.e. equivalent to strong atheist). Atheist means that that person absolutely believes that there is no god or gods.

 

What matters is how the BSA interprets it, and they've stated on their legal website that neither atheists nor agnostics can join.

[perdidochas]

Merlyn,

 

As an agnostic or atheist, could you honestly obey the Scout oath? Would you want to join a group that had such a requirement?

 

On my honor, I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.