One of THOSE topics

[moosetracker]

If that's what you believe Beavah, your welcome to it.

 

I just don't see freedom of choice for those who believe different then "other religions" as forcing them to do anything but accept that the world doesn't revolve around them (that goes for Catholic, LDS, conservative Protestants). And that is about their views on gay marriages, abortions and contraceptions. Laws should not be wrapped around their beliefs..

 

You see the laws being changed for fairness to all as an affront to the religions who don't agree with the laws, and forcing those religions to change.

 

I was more thinking of something that was more concrete of government forcing Catholics to change, when they forced them to accept an older age for young people to marry. And as stated the change more by their members to ditch the Latin services and the no meat on Fridays.

 

Sorry, I have read too many news stories about the decline of the Catholic church over recent years in lots of things. Membership and closing of many churches, and the problems of finding enough young people who want to go into the vocation to keep other churches open. So you can convince me that the Catholic church is stable. I wouldn't be surprised if Protestants are declining also. Religion is just not the "in" thing. But in our town a recent Protestant Chuch was built, and another was tripled in size, and the church that chartered our troop was saving for a much needed addition.. So if they have the right message, they sure seem to be attacting someone. Yet I am sure elsewhere churches have closed.

 

PackSaddle - I saw that about the unconstitutional verdict! That is exactly what I said about NH when they were proposing a new bill to remove the bill giving gays the right to marry. Once you have given them the right, then removing it based on someone elses prejudicial veiws (religious or not) is unconstitutional. But, I didn't even know they were in the same conflict. More so then NH as they voted on it, and have put their right to marry on hold while they fight it. I guess even though they only had the right for 4 months, it was 4 months too much!

 

Love this line : "Proposition 8 serves no purpose, and has no effect, other than to lessen the status and human dignity of gays and lesbians in California, and to officially reclassify their relationships and families as inferior to those of opposite-sex couples,"

 

 

 

PackS

[JoeBob]

 

"2010 GSS indicates (again) that the U.S. Catholic population continues to grow."

http://nineteensixty-four.blogspot.com/2011/03/emerging-us-catholic-trends-gss-2010.html

 

At least we're not declining.

[moosetracker]

Well something is askew between my leisurely reading, and news cast stories and your numbers.. Don't know what.

 

These are not the stories I have read in the last few years, but just some I picked up that are very similar to the stories I have been getting.

 

http://theweek.com/article/index/202388/catholics-in-crisis

http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/The-faithful-rattled-by-planned-closing-of-three-2209619.php

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-03-25/living/cleveland.catholic.parish.closures_1_church-closures-parishes-official-catholic-directory?_s=PM:LIVING

 

 

I remember reading maybe three months back from a women who desperately wanted her name removed from membership of the Catholic church she wrote something like "They will never take you off, once you have been ???(I think it was baptised, but could have been something else)?? Unless you have done a mortal sin. I wasn't going to go out and murder someone, so I simply lied and told them I had had an abortion to get out of being a member.. I don't remember why it was urgent she get remove from membership, but it was something like there stance on homosexuals but I don't think that was quite it. Anyway I don't think many would take such a radical route..

 

Maybe this is the difference between the base numbers and the physical state of the church?

 

Yeah I kindof figured the protestants have been a slow downward trend over years, while the Catholics were more a slow downward trend.. A definite big downward spike around the preist sex abuse scandels (at least that is what my none poll reading has me believing), then back to gradual downward.. But, may in the last year Catholics have had a slight increase?

[moosetracker]

On a different note, I also found this article (when looking for like stories of what I had been reading for years about Catholic churches.)

 

It also states that the health care issue, is nothing new.. Many States have had it on their books.. Though it did say that some Catholic churches did do the self-insured to get around the state mandate (but not all)..

 

It also states there is talk about finding a solution with the Catholic churces, but (at least in the writers views) not trumping the rights of the general public.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/07/catholics-enraged-response-to-obama-birth-control-policy-is-misplaced.html

 

 

[Beavah]

I remember reading maybe three months back from a women who desperately wanted her name removed from membership of the Catholic church

 

Yah, hmmm...

 

I have to say I'm in agreement with OGE. I hadn't realized the extent to which such ill-informed prejudice against Catholics was still a major undercurrent in da country.

 

I don't know where yeh do your reading, moosetracker, but yeh seem to be primarily seeking out narratives that support your own personal biases, without even tryin' to develop a genuine understandin' of where the other folks are coming from.

 

Don't reckon anybody online is goin' to change your approach, so about all we can do is shake our head and walk away in sadness.

 

B

 

[moosetracker]

Sorry, couldn't locate that for you if I tried. I was looking for something else unrelated, and that was in a comment on the article I was reading. So it is not as well written article, just someone comment of a personal struggle they had. Perhaps the women just made it up, or had some individual in the Catholic Church giving her the run-around.

 

Frankly though I am sorry, I do trust articles about struggles in the Catholic Church over statistical numbers. How many times have people come on this forum stating that the head count of Scouts by BSA is totally wrong (to put it nicely.).. But I did admit that perhaps the Catholic Church has come up in numbers in the past year as a possibility that the numbers could be right. The articles I found are dated 3/2009, 4/2010, 10/2011.. Locally the stories were mostly around church closings and around the year 2010.. But they were of interest to read as the parishioners were having a hard time coming to terms with the loss of their church, and were doing a lot of stuff to get media attention about it, in hopes of someone or something coming to their rescue. We also had a Catholic school that the church wanted to close.. That had a successful end though, a lot of people came together they got one generous backer and the parents of the school were able to buy the school from the Catholic church and are still running it.

 

Sorry if I read things like this that are written in the newspapers and broadcast over the TV and think they are accurate.. Sorry I don't trust in simple number statics over descriptive articles.

 

OK back to the original topic. I had thought when the opponents of same-sex marriages started pushing for laws to give them the right to refuse service to same-sex marriages and the state had tabled the bill, but it may be put back in for a vote this month...

 

It was written yesterday after the California court ruled a similar motion unconstitutional, but doesn't mention that. All in all I think the Union Leader tried to be fair to both sides of the issue writing a pretty neutral piece. I am surprised as the UL is well known to be conservative, and not unbiased, and I read they are already trying out the "refuse to service" law (that is but a twinkle in the eye of...) by refusing to post engagement announcements for Same-Sex..

 

http://www.unionleader.com/article/20120207/NEWS06/702089990

[moosetracker]

Well I guess it is just one of those hot topics this week.. Looks like Washington is coming to the "other" side.

 

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/08/10355280-washington-lawmakers-pass-gay-marriage-bill

 

[Beavah]

For anybody who is still followin' this thread, here's a piece that I found quite sound in its reasoning, despite comin' from a liberal perspective.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/02/the-contraception-coverage-debate-isnt-just-about-the-bishops/252780/

 

B

 

[fred8033]

Beavah ... great article. Love The Atlantic. It's one of a few magazines I read. Right up there with Foreign Affairs and The Economist. Detailed, educational, and fairly balanced articles.

 

[Tampa Turtle]

There are a number of research institutions, including the Glenmary Research Institute out of Atlanta that track religious memberships by county throughout the USA. Since we do not ask that on the census it is a big business. Interesting stuff.

 

The catholic church is closing parishes in Ohio while opening new ones in Georgia due to the hispanic boom in the south.

 

How do you measure membership anyway? By the register? By families who show up once or twice a year anyway? It is all a fuzzy number.

 

The Catholic church is losing population in a big way but making up the loss through immigration so they tend to break even. Most major organized denominations are losing members...methodists getting hit pretty hard. Most growth is in unaffiliated mega-churches. Our jewish brothers and sisters are in the down trend as well.

 

Yeah Catholic parishes never like to think you left just that you temporary lose your mind and will be back.

 

Further complicating things is that research seems to show up to 1/3 of active church goers go to more than 1 church at a time or switch almost every year--including denominations. We are religious shoppers now.

 

But so is Boy Scouts, bowling leagues, and civic clubs. So what? We are the nation of joiners we once were.

 

If you are Catholic and deeply troubled by what the Catholic Church is doing fine--grapple with the issues; but I always suspect of folks willing to poke fault at other beliefs to avoid looking at themselves.

[moosetracker]

 

USCCB's point man on abortion issues, Richard Doerflinger, has already declared that the likely solution to this mess -- the so-called Hawaii compromise -- unacceptable. (In Hawaii, religious employers can invoke a refusal clause that allows them to exclude contraception coverage from employee health plans, while still entitling workers independently to buy contraception coverage from insurers at a cost that is no higher than the price the employer would have paid.)

 

 

Well I never heard of the Hawaii refusal clause (and related employee paid insurance).. Not that it is a great solution. But a decent compromise. Sort of like a co-pay to pay for it, but the church does not even have to hold or allocate out the employees own money towards it. So they would be totally out of the loop.

 

At first I thought USCCB would not be Catholic related, maybe a spokesman for a pro-life group.. But, nope, it stands for US Conference of Bishops. So, if the Catholic church gets their out through this.. What would be the reason that they would object to their employees paying for their own insurance?

 

If the Church gets it's religious freedom, then why can't the women who work for them be allowed to have their personal freedom?

 

 

Obama should ignore Doerflinger and he should ignore any abortion rights groups...

 

 

Seems your "liberal" reporter, seems to agree.. But if he is the Bishops point man, is that a personal statement, or the summary statement about the reaction of the Bishops?

 

But you won your point that Tampa Turtles statement about "cheap Employer" may have been incorrect.. And so I was wrong to accept that statement, without further proof. Sounds like some in the Catholic community were working for the Health reform.

 

So are you happy Beavah? One nice word for the Catholics from me.. Now lets see if the Hawaii refusal clause is what the propose.. And if so, if the Catholic church accepts it.. And if not, what will be their reasoning.

[Tampa Turtle]

I read about a poll on Politico (I know, I know) that asked groups "if they thought employers with employee health plans should cover birth control at NO cost."

 

PERCENT DISAGREE:

White Evangelical 56%

White Protestant 47%

All Americans 40%

Catholic 37%

Unaffiliated 32%

 

So 58% folks identified as Catholics said "Sure!".

 

Funny world.

 

 

[moosetracker]

TT : This may be a pocketbook vote.. Do you want something for free? SURE!!!

 

Basically for BirthControl to be at no cost to employee entire health plan would be at no cost to employee (or at least all prescription medicine).. Because it is hard to say we will pay 100% for BirthControl, but you must pay 10% of all your other prescriptions.

 

Anyway Free is never really Free.. If the company pays more for your health benefit they pay less for your salary..

 

I was never advocating that the Catholic Church had to pay 100%, even stating that they would just need to look at the co-pays and Health care deductions they take out of an Employees salary as their payment for whatever they object to.

 

But, the Hawaii thing of a small supplemental insurance is fine to..

 

But this morning on the news it was stated that 98% of all women use contraceptives at some point in their life and that included 97% of women who were Catholic.. So I doubt few are opposed to the contraception notion. Even the men who have spouses who use, or have used them.

[packsaddle]

As Rush Limbaugh (aka The Bald Ego) says, "It's all about money."

[Beavah]

Yah, as da article indicates, the objections aren't about contraception, eh? They're about religious freedom. And they're not just about conservative hierarchies, they're about progressive reformers objecting as well.

 

Remember, the regulation also provides mandatory coverage for sterilization. We've never seen the government get carried away with mandatory sterilization in the past, have we? We've never seen other nations governments get carried away with mandatory contraception either, I'm sure.

 

If yeh can mandate Catholics cover contraception, then yeh can mandate that Quaker youth groups host military recruiters, that Lutheran Hospitals offer abortions. Yeh can conceive of a time when yeh can mandate euthanasia rather than incurring higher Medicare costs. And while yeh can argue people can opt-out by self-paying, we all know that such an opt-out option applies only to the well-off. It would not be accessible to the poor or to the charities that work with 'em.

 

B