Hunting on Sundays

[Scoutfish]

You have to realize too, that to some extent, hunting is a action that puts more responcibility on ones self too.

 

Used to be a time - way, way back - that the only meat you had was either raised on your farm, or you hunted it.

If you didn't make an effort and do the work, you didn't eat it.

 

THere was no convienence of going to a grocery store.

 

Funny how most of us grown adults lament about the good old days when people took more responcibility for themselves and their families, yet we also advocate having other people do our work for us - ie; buy groceries and food from tehe local grocery store instead of growing or raising it ourselves.

 

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think it would be plausable to expect everybody to have a farm in their back yard in today's modern society...but somewhere, our arguement about going back to the old days and all the values that came with it would very much include more hunting and less relying on others for our food.

 

My grandfather would consider buying fish and ham, eggs and chicken the ultimate act of being full of yourself and a waste of money. He'd think you were just showing off because you bought you ham and eggs and fish instead of working for your own.

 

In his mind, it would be just like bragging about how many maids and servants you had.

 

Myself....I don't hunt, but I do fish. I fish with a rod and reel, I set nets, I shrimp, I use crab pots. And I enjoy it because it's not my full time job abd I do not have to have that gear to survive.

 

But I also do not catch fish and just throw them back after they die. Every fish I catch either gets eaten by me, a family member or people in my community.

 

I give fish to elderly people who physically cannot catch their own, or who cannot afford to pay $12.00 a pound for fish or shrimp at a fish house. Plus I give them seafood caught that day, not last week .

 

A bunch of guys at my company hunt deer and turkey. They quite frequently bring deer jerky in for others and they give to the local community also.

 

One of my workers alwys gives half of what he kils to a local family who are down on their luck.

 

So, you may consider that a agressive act, but it ends up with a family having a meal they wouldn't of had otherwise.

[packsaddle]

That memory is burned into me as strongly as any other, the day my father said it is time I helped with something. He told me to stand on the turkey's head. I could hardly believe the words I was hearing. But there we were: my father, me, the turkey. And sure enough he put the turkey's head on the wood block and I dutifully stood on it. I knew what was going to happen and I knew I needed to keep the bird anchored there to make sure it was a clean strike. And I did. But the blade practically whistled past my foot as it separated dinner from its thoughts. And as Bart noted, dinner then took off on its ghoulish race to death. I fulfilled this task numerous times until one day it was my turn at the blade.

 

I think different people react differently. Some may enjoy the rush of taking a life, I never did. At the same time, looking back, I also know that like many other things in life, as time passed I found new ways of thinking about life, hopefully with greater depth and insight. I never took pleasure, I actually kind of dreaded the task of slaughter, while at the same time understanding that it was a necessary responsibility.

 

I went to school with a boy who later became a serial killer. At one time I had called him 'friend'. I can't put my 'finger' on the point at which he changed but by high school, he was already available to really bad actions. Where I was raised, there were some folks who we knew would "as soon kill you as look at you". There were others in my school cohort who openly expressed a casual disregard for human life and practiced their thoughts on neighborhood pets and nearby wildlife. They knew that laws protected the livestock so those animals were off limits. But mostly they talked about the power of what they could and would do if given a chance. And what I learned by listening and watching all this, especially as that evil was applied to black people, what I learned was valuable later in my life. It helped me make some hard decisions although I have never really understood what it is that generates that kind of intensely focused hatred in someone - for no apparent reason.

 

Only a few of them were hunters. But when they 'hunted' they did it with as little thought and regard for animals or anything else, really, as they had for people. A few of these boys were scouts in my troop.

 

I can't dismiss Johnponz's thoughts as simply 'city talk' or some such. If there is even a sliver of a chance of some deep connection from which we might be able, some day, to understand where hate comes from and why some people are so ready to apply it, I think it is good to continue to pose the question.

I will continue to disagree with Johnponz on this subject. But I will admit the possibility that there is substance to the questions he poses. And for that, I hope he will continue to try to convince me with even better reasoning in the future.

[johnponz]

I took Beavah's implied advice and did a little research. Unfortunately, this is a little researched subject within Psychology (as near as I can tell, and the results of the few studies that I could locate are conflicting) so the scientist in me says that the hypothesis is not proved.

 

That being said, I still adhere to my philosophical beliefs stated many times previously (summation-killing for fun denigrates society by devaluing life). I just say that they have yet to be proven. I do concede that if you are hunting for food and need to hunt to support your family and yourself, it is a different story. Maybe that is why the studies conflict, they did not control for people who were hunting for other than recreational reasons. My hypothesis would be that people who hunt for recreational purposes are more prone to violence then those who do not. I do not believe that topic has ever formally been studied.

 

As to the slavery issue, these animals have been bred to work especially "working dogs." I have 2 Siberian Huskies and one of them couldn't be happier (I know that I am putting human feelings on her-but she sure appears to be happy) than when she is pulling a sled. These dogs (huskies in general) appear to like to work, and I do not consider them slaves but rather companions who work just like I do.

 

The other Husky I would never hook up to a sled because she spent the first 6 or so years of her life as puppy mill breeding stock (we have had her for about 2 years now). I ended up rescuing her through a local husky rescue association. I know not to hook her up to a sled because she is very shy, and is just now accepting being petted. Hooking her up to a sled would probably be very traumatic.

 

I think the slavery argument vs. the hunting argument is comparing apples to oranges, but none the less I argue that most of the times the animals are doing what they were bred to do, and as was stated earlier sort of coevolved to do.

(This message has been edited by johnponz)

[JoeBob]

What's wrong with a little violence every now and then? As an individual or a society?

 

I LOVE college football!

 

 

[Beavah]

As to the slavery issue, these animals have been bred to work especially "working dogs."

 

But yeh can breed humans to work too, eh? That was da point of some of the eugenics programs. And then they'd "seem to be happy" by doing what they were bred to do.

 

Seems like you're just desensitizing people to the whole eugenics and slavery issue. Many a slave owner would claim their slaves "seemed to be happy". Many would claim them to be "companions" in work as well, except only one side of da "companionship" was free to leave. Rewards for doing what yeh want, punishments for not. Sounds like slavery to me.

 

And worse, you're keeping your animal slaves for recreation. At lest the old-time slave owners were doing it for their livelihood.

 

Just sayin'.

 

Thanks for da honest and interestin' discussion.

 

B

[vol_scouter]

Johnponz,

 

I grew up hunting, primarily doves, and have hunted for years. My experiences do not reflect those of Packsaddle's except the experiences of taking the life of an animal. As time has gone on, I have less interest in hunting but still very much enjoy shooting. My father organized hunts on the large fields surrounding our house each fall. Later, I have been hunting with friends. NONE of them have shown any evidence of violent tendencies. They are doctors, attorneys, accountants, scientists, and business folk. In reading accounts of violent criminals, hunting has seldom been mentioned as a hobby or 'training' prior to the violent act. Most violent crime occurs in our inner cities where folks seldom if ever see game animals let alone hunt. It is much more likely that being a member of a gang is related to a violent crime than being a hunter. Most hunters that I know have a high respect for life, take violent crime very seriously, and try to avoid situations that could lead to violence.

 

It is doubtful that your study would ever be done in an objective manner but would rather been performed to prove a point. The APA (professional organization for pediatricians) sponsored research to 'prove' that there should never be guns in a home with children and that guns are bad in general (late 1990's). These studies received glowing praise from the media. When I read them, they were very poor science and reliable conclusions could not be drawn. That is likely what you found in your perusal of the literature as well.

 

My anecdotal experiences and reading of news accounts leads me to believe that hunting does not encourage violent behavior but in fact would argue the opposite, that hunters are less prone to be charged with violence (excluding of course true hunting accidents as to be contrasted with homicides while hunting of which I have rarely read).

 

Going to the original question, I was raised a Christian in a very Christian section of the country. I was taught that one never hunts on Sunday. I have never hunted on Sunday.

[johnponz]

I try not to rely on anecdotal evidence by itself to prove a point. However at least SOME hunters do commit violent crimes. Here is a link with a few examples (I am sure there are many more-I just read one ion our local paper). I realize this link is biased toward my point of view, and am using it it only to show that at least SOME hunters are violent.

 

It is a flaw of most studies that they are trying to promote one view or another (especially true in the social sciences and even the physical ones in the academic publish or perish environment).

 

I believe to say that hunters are less vilolent than non-hunters is a real big stretch and I have seen no evidence to support that view.

 

http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000892

 

(This message has been edited by johnponz)

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm....

 

I read your link, johnponz. I confess I found it a confused muddle of nonsense. I was goin' to respond to some points, but there were far too many to even begin.

 

This is da sort of tract that's typical of advocacy groups tryin' to "fire up" their base to get donations. I note that this is in fact a donation site. Yeh see the same extreme nonsense from da far right and far left political groups and a lot of other lobbies. Someone with a clinical eye might say it borders on losin' touch with reality, until yeh actually meet da folks that write this sort of copy. Often yeh find they are cynical PR types that are just doin' a job, and get a kick out of this sort of writing.

 

Personally, I think it only detracts from real debate and encourages people to view fellow citizens as "the enemy". Haven't we had enough of that in America by now?

 

Beavah

 

[JoeBob]

John:

 

From your link:

"A hunter can attack any so-called fair game at any time."

Totally false. Hunting out of season will get you jail time.

 

"He can trespass on any property that isnt posted and guarded."

Is there a "POSTED" sign on your front door? So I can come in any time without being charged with B&E? What's for dinner?

 

For a more objective look at the incident your article mis-represents, I googled both names and found "Where Rampages Begin" :

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/14/us/where-rampages-begin-special-report-adolescent-angst-shooting-up-schools.html?ref=andrewgolden&pagewanted=1

 

BTW, I recommend the above article to Scouters who work closely with boys. I learned a few things to look for...

 

The NYT article directs repsonsiblity towards film, music, video games, and absent parents.

 

HUNTING is not mentioned even once.

[vol_scouter]

I concur with Beavah about the website. I know and have known hundreds of hunters and they do not match your article. Johnponz, how many times have you gone hunting and how many hunters do you know? This is not meant to be confrontational but to point out that it is easy for us to be critical of groups with whom we have little or no experience. Many physician colleagues are hunters which speaks counter to your arguments. There are websites and magazines which tell many stories about how people use firearms to protect themselves and their families from violent criminals. As Beavah points, these sites portray one side of things and add nothing to the discussion. Most gun crime occurs in inner cities among youth that are not hunters. As a scientist, there is no scientific evidence to refute my beliefs and I have much anecdotal experience that tells me that hunting does not promote violence.

[johnponz]

I actually agree with Beavah and JimBob regagarding the link I posted. I posted it for one reason only. To show vol_scouter that there are some hunters who do have violent action against humans. IT WAS NOT INTENDED FOR ANY OTHER USE.

 

Really, it was the only site I could find that listed several incidents regarding hunters and violence in one place. I agree that in general the site is biased and I would not take too much further from it beside there are some hunters that commit violent acts. That point in and of itself does not mean much because there are some non-hunters who commit violent acts too.

 

I am pretty much done commenting on this topic as I am starting to beat a dead horse.

 

 

 

 

[johnponz]

I will answer vol_scouters question. I grew up in West Central Ohio on the Indiana border (hardly a metropolis). My father was/is a hunter/trapper who actually hunts and traps for money and food, and I have known many hunters from there. Most of them I put in the "yahoo" category irregardless of occupation-they like to party a little bit more than average and will talk about their various escapades more than most. (I really do not believe that what one does for a living makes too much of a difference). I find most of them are a little bit on the crazy side-just my own observations.

 

I am now living in Eastern PA and beside a couple of Scouter friends (again a little on the non-conformist "yahoo" side I do not know many hunters. There has been a series of interesting articles in the paper about a local attorney who was hunting and shot another person in a supposed hunting accident. He has since been convicted of an unlawful death. I point this out to say occupation does not matter. Back home in Ohio an eye doctor just got convicted of unlawful sexual conduct with a senior citizen (I do not know if he hunts).

 

I probably am a little more sensitive to animal's rights because of the puppy mill survivor that I adopted. She is midssing half of her mouth because the owner of the mill cut it off instead of getting stitches. I am not a fan of puppy mills or buying pets from pet stores either but thast is another story.

 

In summation, I have known plenty of hunters and they have tended to confirm my thoughts on this issue. I cocede the hunters you know may do the opposite for you-that is the problem with antadotal evidence-we all have different experiences.

 

PS I did not proofread or spell check this.(This message has been edited by johnponz)

[BartHumphries]

johnponz, I recommend you watch a little movie that came out recently called "Tucker & Dale vs Evil". Here's the trailer: http://www.magnetreleasing.com/tuckeranddalevsevil/

[JoeBob]

Bart,

 

Thanks for that link. My morning is better all ready!

 

JoeBob

[Beavah]

OMG. LOL.

 

Thanks, Barthumphries!

 

B