Gov. Rick Perry violates the religious rights of children

[Twocubdad]

You sold right through the close, Merlyn. Sounded to me that folks, Beav in particular, were trying to agree with your OP.

 

While claiming Perry violates childrens' religious right is a clever rhetoric twist, (and believe me, I don't support Perry in the least), I do agree with your underlying idea that all sorts of prayer is -- and should be -- allowed in schools. Beav is spot-on that much of the problems with applying school-prayer decisions has come from local idiots who don't understand the nuiance of individual prayer vs. state organized prayer. As many folks have noted, anyone who thinks there is no prayer in schools needs to stand in the hall before a calculus final.

 

On the other hand, if you just came to pick a fight, go right ahead.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

It didn't look to me like Beavah was agreeing with me; he came up with a lot of the usual oh-how-Christians-are-being-discriminated-against-in-public-schools malarkey with no actual examples, and from what I could tell, he's claiming that it's e.g. perfectly legal now for a public schoolteacher to tell students that god doesn't exist, but illegal to tell students that god does exist.

[Tampa Turtle]

My kids are in a Florida public school and have prayed, out loud, before class and in the cafeteria with no repercussions. I have taught them they have a right to freedom of religious expression but so does everyone else and the need to be polite and respectful in a civil society.

 

I told them we subscribe to the Gandi saying "I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any. (It is also quoted in the more recent Catholic Catechism)

 

The kids they go to school with are a real mix and they have had some interesting discussions.

 

We have only had one problem with a teacher and had to explain the difference between establishment of a state religion and freedom of expression.

[CalicoPenn]

So I'm going to risk offending Beavah by violating his CP can't post policy .

 

It's a very common religious right meme that children aren't allowed to pray in public schools anymore - and as has been pointed out, rather dishonest too, as blanket statements can sometimes end up being. Kids can pray in public school, on their own - the schools and their agents (principles, teachers, teacher aids, cafeteria workers, school bus drivers, janitors, etc.) just can't lead the prayers or create an environment where student-led prayer may be seen as the school favoring one religion over another or forcing students who do not want to pray to be subjected to the prayers. It's not just Governor Perry saying this.

 

However, I can see some parents or kids or teachers taking Perry's statement, if they haven't understood it to be campaign rhetoric, as some kind of order from the Governor and take it to mean that all prayer is banned, but it's the campaign trail and the media prefers sound bites and won't take the time to explain that his statement doesn't mean that kids can't pray on their own in school.

 

Beavah mentioned that teachers can't pray in school. That's not quite right either, which serves as an example of why such blanket statements like "kids can't pray in school" are often inaccurate - part of it can be correct, and sometimes most of it can be correct, but often there's a part that makes it not quite correct. Beavah is correct in that teachers can't lead their kids to pray, and probably should refrain from praying out loud in front of their students - but, like the "kids can't pray in school" thing, there's nothing that says a teacher can't say a silent prayer in his/her own head at anytime, or can't find a quiet and solitary place to pray during the school day - at least not as far as I'm aware.

 

What really irritates me are the statements that try to turn non-religious subjects into religion. Environmentalism and Earth Day a religion? Seriously?? So that makes all those Christians, from many denominations, and Jews, and Muslims and Hindus, etc. etc. that are environmentalists and take part in Earht Day activities multi-theists then? What religion might the Chess Club be promoting - Fischerism? A Diversity Club that accepts animism as equal to Christianity is bad how? Seems to me the Diversity Club would be following the BSA principles involved with A Scout is Reverent. A Diversity Club isn't a religious club - but as I seem to recall, the Supreme Court has said that a University doesn't have the right to withhold student government funds from religious clubs just because they are religious - seems to me that would hold true at a High School district level so I'm not sure about this idea that a Diversity Club can get funds but a Campus Outreach for Christ club can't.

 

As for Martin Luther King Day - he's not be honored because he was a reverend, he's being honored because his work as a reverend led to him being a leader in the Civil Right's movement which went well beyond the narrower focus of his pulpit. However, I do believe we should change the name of the day to Civil Rights Day to honor everyone involved in the Civil Rights movements (both past, current and future) but keep the celebration to the Monday closest to King's birthday. We've already merged Washington's Birthday and Lincoln's Birthday into President's Day to honor all of our Presidents, and Memorial Day and Veteran's Day now remember all our wars and veterans rather than the specific wars they started out doing (Memorial Day used to be called Decoration Day to commemorate fallen Union soldiers of the Civil War - now, it comemmorates all our wars and soldiers, including Confederate soldiers and Veteran's Day used to be Armistice Day to celebrate the end of World War One), it seems it's more in keeping with our traditions to officially call MLK Day "Civil Right's Day" in the tradition of Memorial Day, Veteran's Day and Labor Day.

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

How many legs does a dog have, if you call a tail a leg, SeattlePioneer?

[packsaddle]

Gad! In my best Sarducci impression, "I blama myself."(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Beavah]

So I'm going to risk offending Beavah by violating his CP can't post policy .

 

Yah, that's OK, CalicoPenn. I reckon I have about as much enforcement authority and desire as da BSA .

 

- Da furry Beavah with da "hick dialect".

[CalicoPenn]

Oh shoot - I just realized that my very wide grin after my sentence about violating a small furry mammal's posting policy didn't post - I have got to learn how to put in those smiley things! Sorry Beavah - I took it all as light hearted fun!

[Scoutfish]

Wait a minute beavah, I am going to have to argue with you on something.....

 

You say "hick dialect". But what I am hearing is a northern - possibly Northeastern Maine Dialect.

 

Or somebody who watched too much Justin Wilson growing up!

 

"I gar-on-tee!".

[vol_scouter]

Merlyn,

 

When will you support the next clause the First Amendment. The first part of the amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Many students have tried to freely exercise their first amendment rights at school only to be prohibited by the school. Where was your post, criticism, and vitriol? The First Amendment, as you well know, was written to allow the states to have their own state endorsed religions but to prohibit the federal government from making the selection. So the founding fathers would find your views contrary to the original intent. The 14th Amendment is seen as federalizing everything resulting in the erosion of our First Amendment rights to the free exercise of religion. Until you support the ability of everyone to freely exercise their religion - not there is not mention of places where one cannot exercise their religion - then you should not be calling people liars because they support the entire amendment.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

vol_scouter whines:

When will you support the next clause the First Amendment.

 

I always have. Of course, it probably doesn't match your funhouse-mirror version of the first amendment.

 

Many students have tried to freely exercise their first amendment rights at school only to be prohibited by the school. Where was your post, criticism, and vitriol?

 

Well, let's see. Here I'm criticizing SeattlePioneer:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=311315&p=2

SeattlePioneer writes:

Take atheism as an example. Government prevents schools from having a role in religion and prayer. In effect government enforces a religion free zone in schools.

 

Complete hogwash.

 

Can students pray in school? Yes, if they want to. They can also NOT pray if they want to. Their choice.

Can government schools tell students to pray or not pray? No. It's unconstitutional for the government to tell people to pray or not pray, or to compose prayers for schoolchildren.

 

And I'm clearly saying that students can pray if they want to.

 

Here I'm criticizing Ed and TheScout:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=167622&p=3

Ed writes:

I don''t have specifics but prayer isn''t allowed in public schools.

 

Wrong Ed. I and many others have tried to explain this to you, but you can''t learn.

 

Students can pray in public school, Ed.

 

It was a long time ago, then someone got offended, sued & now there is no prayer in schools.

 

Wrong Ed. As you say, you don''t have "specifics." You don''t even have facts.

 

TheScout writes:

Yes, it would be a shame for public schools to promote morality.

 

Promoting prayer has nothing to do with promoting morality. Do you want unelected school bureaucrats to decide what prayers your kids are to recite? If so, why on Earth do you want such a thing?

 

 

Now, I could continue for a lot more examples, but it would be pointless, since I've clearly stated my opinion many times and you, vol_scouter, simply don't care what my opinion actually IS.

 

The First Amendment, as you well know, was written to allow the states to have their own state endorsed religions but to prohibit the federal government from making the selection. So the founding fathers would find your views contrary to the original intent.

 

I'm also against slavery, which would be contrary to the original intent of the constitution. However, both official state government religions and slavery are no longer constitutional due to amendments.

 

The 14th Amendment is seen as federalizing everything resulting in the erosion of our First Amendment rights to the free exercise of religion.

 

No, state powers get eroded because states can no longer infringe on the first amendment rights of citizens.

 

Until you support the ability of everyone to freely exercise their religion - not there is not mention of places where one cannot exercise their religion - then you should not be calling people liars because they support the entire amendment.

 

Well, I haven't done that.

 

I've called Governor Rick Perry a liar for saying kids can't pray in school. That's a lie.

[vol_scouter]

Merlyn,

 

The First Amendment guarantees the free exercise of religion - it does not specify what form that may take therefore i cannot be limited to silent prayers. Whenever schools or the government tells folks that they cannot discuss their religion as in a valedictorian speech or when folks praying on the steps of the Supreme Court that open prayer is not allowed, our rights have been eroded. You should support all of our first amendment rights if you want to lecture others. You call people names and attack them because your arguments are not right.

[Trevorum]

On behalf of Texas, I want to apologize to the rest of the country for Governor Perry. Please believe me when I say we're not all idiots.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

vol_scouter babbles:

Merlyn,

 

The First Amendment guarantees the free exercise of religion - it does not specify what form that may take therefore i cannot be limited to silent prayers.

 

What are you babbling about now? I haven't said anything about silent vs. non-silent prayers. Are there voices in your head or something?

 

Whenever schools or the government tells folks that they cannot discuss their religion as in a valedictorian speech or when folks praying on the steps of the Supreme Court that open prayer is not allowed, our rights have been eroded. You should support all of our first amendment rights if you want to lecture others. You call people names and attack them because your arguments are not right.

 

What are you babbling about now?

 

I called Gov. Rick Perry a liar because he lied. Are you completely dense?

 

By the way, if my "arguments are not right," quote an argument I've made and point out what is wrong about it. I've noticed many, many, many times in this forum that you and others are quick to make vague accusations, and when I ask for specific examples, I rarely get any kind of response.

 

So, if my "arguments are not right," quote an argument I've made and point out what is wrong about it.

 

That shouldn't be hard, right?

 

If my "arguments are not right," quote an argument I've made and point out what is wrong about it.

 

Not a paraphrase, a quote. I've written about 3500 messages here, so it should be easy for you to quote something to support your accusations.

[vol_scouter]

Here students were prevented from praying on school grounds before school started:

http://faithandthelaw.wordpress.com/2010/09/22/adf-prepared-to-defend-students-prevented-from-praying-in-see-you-at-the-pole-event/

 

 

This group was allowed to have a group discussion on the oval plaza of the US Supreme Court but were told to leave when they bowed their heads in prayer:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4285408/when-is-prayer-illegal/

 

So Merlyn, as a defender of the First Amendment, you are now rightly enraged are you not by the violation of the Free Exercise clause?