Gov. Rick Perry violates the religious rights of children

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

OK, I can take garden-variety idiots spouting nonsense about the first amendment, but Gov. Perry is absolutely vile.

 

Any number of people can babble and say that children in the US can't pray in school, but when a sitting governor blatantly lies on television and says kids can't pray in school, it's quite likely that some kids who, at times, pray in school, might see that on TV, and, seeing a governor (possibly their own governor) saying that kids can't pray in school, STOP PRAYING IN SCHOOL, because that expletive idiot said so!

 

It's also possible that a slightly lower-grade idiot who happens to be a school official might believe it and stop kids from exercising their religious rights in school, also because that same expletive idiot said so.

 

And all because he's losing in the polls. Forget honesty and first amendment rights.

 

What a worthless sack of protoplasm. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[SeattlePioneer]

Personally, I find the extent to which the courts have excised religion from public life and public schools to be outrageous.

 

Any politician who wants to raise such things as political issues is entitled to do so, and might well have my support for doing so.

 

Frankly, I haven't paid much attention to Perry's use of this issue, so I can't comment on that specifically.

[Scoutfish]

Well, stupid is an equal oppertunity affliction.

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

Suppose the courts decided that making the birthday of a Christian minister a national holiday unconstitutionally entangled church and state.

 

Or that environmentalism must be excluded from public schools as "nature worship," the world's oldest form of religion.

 

While were at it, the Supreme Court might decide that worship of the Supreme Court is a cult, with nine Popes sitting in a Greek Temple in Washington DC and with Archbishops, Bishops and Priests in lower courts, law schools and such all busily promoting this state religion --- and their own power.

 

Government is shot through with various kinds of state supported religions. But the courts protect many of them and attack primarily Christians. Better to get out of the business of picking which religions will rule and let them all contend for influence without the Supreme Court putting their thumbs on the scales of justice.

[Scoutfish]

Seattle,

 

Don't take Perry's commentys as the governments comments.

 

The government dos not care if you pray or if you elect not to pray.

 

The government only says that the school ( as a govt entity) cannot force you to or deny you the right to pray.

 

The school cannot choose to "officially) conduct a prayer of any one particular religion.

 

However, individula students and rgroups of students ( clubs) can have prayer on their own accord and be recognized as a group for such prayer as long as all other religious or non religious groups are allowed the same freedom.

 

In Merly's case, they should not be expected or forced to take part in the prayer. In your case, you can take the time to pray as long as all others are afforded the same right as individulas.

 

A Christian group could have a "Christian students club" at school as long as other religions are allows the same right..such as Muslim, Buddist, etc.

 

The problem is that people like Perry see a very small part of a rule, and advertise it broadly beyond the rule's meaning and intent.

 

Seperation of church and state (simply put) just says that government cannot force religion on you, cannot deny you any religion, nor regulate which religion you participate in.

 

The government cannot create a religion or recognize one as superior to the others, or superior to those who do not follow a religion.

 

People on the other hand ( like Perry) run amok and go overboard with it.

 

And although I am a religious person, I do think goverm=nment needs to be in the buisness of religion anyways.

 

Merly should not be subject to laws based on my religious beliefs.

 

You should not be held to laws based on Merlyns beliefs. One day, if Muslims become the majority, I am sure you do not want to be subject to laws based on their beliefs as they should not be subject to laws based on our/my/your beliefs today.

 

Again, Perry is either grasping at straws for his political career, misinformed, or blatantly malicious as Merlyn says.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

SeattlePioneer writes:

Personally, I find the extent to which the courts have excised religion from public life and public schools to be outrageous.

 

What, specifically?

 

Any politician who wants to raise such things as political issues is entitled to do so, and might well have my support for doing so.

 

But Perry is lying about what the current law IS. He's misleading people into thinking that students can't pray in public schools NOW.

 

I don't think governors should lie to the public about what the law actually says. Hell, tomorrow he could say it's legal for citizens to kill illegal immigrants, and if some people got murdered because of his statements, I'd say he's partly responsible. The same is true when he lies about first amendment rights.

 

Government is shot through with various kinds of state supported religions. But the courts protect many of them and attack primarily Christians.

 

I have to say, as someone who is not a Christian, its hard for me to believe Christians are a persecuted people in America. God willing, maybe one of you one day will even rise up and get to be president of this country or maybe forty-four in a row. But thats my point, is theyve taken this idea of no establishment as persecution, because they feel entitled, not to equal status, but to greater status.

-- Jon Stewart

 

You're really far gone, you know that?

[Scoutfish]

theyve taken this idea of no establishment as persecution, because they feel entitled, not to equal status, but to greater status.

 

As a God Believing man myself, I couldn't agree more.

 

I have personally seen it myself at town hall meetings: Some people only wanted a specific Christian prayer to be said at the beginning of town hall meetings, regardless of the make up of those in attendance or the makeup of the town.

 

When the town opted to rotate out different prayers for the different citizens who regularly attended, only the Christin groups complained and had a fit about it.

 

So the town did trhe only fair thing it could, it dropped any and all prayer, and elected instead to have a moment of silence before opening session.

 

This of course caused those few people to claim they were being persecuted. Never mind they were doing the exact same thing to the other groups beliefs.

 

All the town did was create all beliefs equal. Only one group saw it as persecution.

 

"Do as I say, not as I do"

 

[Scoutfish]

" All the town did was create all beliefs equal."

 

Ooops! I meant to say, all the town did was create a situation where all beliefs were treated equal.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm certainly not goin' to defend Governor Perry. Da fellow seems to me to be... well, it's hard to say just what he is. Not da best example of an Eagle Scout perhaps.

 

Like anything, there is some truth to da matter, though. Partly because of what Merlyn describes as lower level idiots in school administrations who can't seem to wrap their brains around da concept. That's often da case when legalism replaces common sense.

 

Now, while students nominally have a limited right to pray, teachers do not. Because a teacher praying may be an "undue influence" by his or her example, that's not allowed. A teacher can, however, tell students that God doesn't exist, or that not supporting gay marriage for religious reasons is homophobic.

 

So how would yeh feel as a parent if your kid's teachers are permitted to slam your family's beliefs, but not express agreement with those beliefs in da simplest and least threatening manner? Fair action by da government?

 

And let's look at clubs, eh? A Christian Club can meet durin' school time, sure. A teacher might even be appointed as an observer to make sure da students don't hurt themselves. But da teacher is not permitted to lead da club, organize events, or even help in those ways. Compare that with da "scientific skeptics" club. So long as it's areligious or anti-religious, a teacher can lead the club, help organize events, etc. Naturally, teachers being much more experienced at such things, those events and clubs are more likely to succeed.

 

Is that fair and neutral action by da government, or does it privilege one viewpoint over another?

 

Then our "Diversity Club" that advocates a position that animism is equally valid religiously with Christianity is eligible for direct funding by the district using tax dollars. So not only do they have a teacher who can organize events, they have funding that da Christian Club does not, to make their events far more attractive. Funding that may well have come from taxpayers who would be more in tune with da Christian Club.

 

If the State allows advocacy of one position but not another, allows organizing and leads one group but not another, funds one group but not another, it's hard not to see that as "establishing" a position opposing Christian belief in da schools.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[packsaddle]

Interesting. I may have some common ground with SeattlePioneer on this. But just to make sure, SP, please clue me in as to what you think the "catechism of environmentalism commonly taught in public schools" is. I just want to cross-check.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Beavah writes:

A teacher can, however, tell students that God doesn't exist

 

No they can't, Beavah, not legally. Got a real example?

 

Compare that with da "scientific skeptics" club. So long as it's areligious or anti-religious, a teacher can lead the club, help organize events, etc. Naturally, teachers being much more experienced at such things, those events and clubs are more likely to succeed.

 

Again, got any real examples? Plus, of course, you should compare Christian clubs to atheist clubs. And if you think atheist clubs are wildly more successful than Christian clubs because teachers are falling over themselves to help out, you haven't checked out the Secular Student Alliance and how many schools actively and illegally resist the formation of atheist clubs.

 

Then our "Diversity Club" that advocates a position that animism is equally valid religiously with Christianity is eligible for direct funding by the district using tax dollars. So not only do they have a teacher who can organize events, they have funding that da Christian Club does not, to make their events far more attractive.

 

Again, I'd like a cite.

 

If the State allows advocacy of one position but not another, allows organizing and leads one group but not another, funds one group but not another, it's hard not to see that as "establishing" a position opposing Christian belief in da schools.

 

Yeah. "If". Your imagination doesn't count.

 

How about a school group that promotes proper grammar instead of hick dialects?

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Packsaddle,

 

If you go back into the early 20th century history of public education, John Dewey for example, it's clear that among the reasons for the interest in expanding public schools was to give elites much greater access and control over children, and to reduce the influence parents had over children.

 

My, has THAT been a successful program! Teaching academic skills may be hit or miss, but indoctrinating children in political, social and cultural values is far more effectively done under the public school system!

 

Families and churches have had their influence greatly reduced. Indeed, reducing the influence of families and churches has been one of the OBJECTS of public education, in my opinion.

 

One might point to sex education classes as being an example of the catechism of public education on that subject.

 

The celebration of "Earth Day" in public schools serves as part of a more comprehensive effort to indoctrinate children with environmentalist values. It's a religious holiday celebrated in public schools, for all practical purposes.

 

ML King Jr. birthday is another secular Saints Day celebrated in public schools.

 

I would compare ML King's birthday to the use made of the death of Jean Marat during the French Revolution for political and cultural reasons:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Marat

 

He too was made into a secular saint and used for political purposes, helping to sell and justify the Terror of the French Revolution, among other things.

 

I see the religious impulse rather widely exploited for use in public schools. Among other things, it's ironic that secularism is preached as part of this new state religion.

 

 

[Kahuna]

Fortunately, Merlyn, you don't live or vote in Florida. I don't really see that this concerns you. By the way, I love it when you get all excited and rattled like that.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

SeattlePioneer writes:

I see the religious impulse rather widely exploited for use in public schools. Among other things, it's ironic that secularism is preached as part of this new state religion.

 

Hysterical blather doesn't cut it. REVEREND ML King is a SECULAR saint? Earth day is a religious holiday (so why isn't school out on that day)?

 

One might point to sex education classes as being an example of the catechism of public education on that subject.

 

One might point to dodgeball as an example of promoting nuclear fission, but only if one is a lunatic.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Kahuna mysteriously babbles:

Fortunately, Merlyn, you don't live or vote in Florida. I don't really see that this concerns you. By the way, I love it when you get all excited and rattled like that.

 

What are you babbling about?

 

First, Rick Perry is the current governor of Texas.

 

Second, any time a high government official like a governor lies about first amendment rights, it concerns me. Yes, it's been clear for quite a while that you don't care about first amendment rights, but other people aren't as short-sighted as you.