Girl guides set to drop oath to God in bow to secularists

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

SaintCad writes:

One young scout told me he was an atheist and after talking to him it was clear he was agnostic (but he had no clue what the difference was).

 

I suspect YOU don't know the difference, since it's possible (and common) to be both an atheist and agnostic. I am.

 

You can also be a Christian and an agnostic. Or some other kind of theist and an agnostic.

 

A theist is someone who believes one (or more) gods exist.

An atheist is someone who is not a theist.

 

If you say that young scout is not an atheist, what god(s) does he believe in? The only criterion to be an atheist is to not believe in any gods, so if he doesn't meet that requirement, he must believe in at least one. Which one(s)?

[SaintCad]

As someone who minored in Comparative Religion, I'm pretty sure I know the difference between atheism and agnosticism and that they are not necessarily synonymous so believe it or not there is a difference. Since you choose to assume I am ignorant let me point out that the difference between the two is about faith vs. knowledge. Agnostics believe that belief in God is based on faith in that there is no true way to prove God exists within our epistomology. Atheism is the belief that God or any other deity does not exist.

 

I don't believe I ever said the two views were contradictory. Instead I believe I said that a particular scout indoctrinated with Judeo-Christian theology tells me that they are atheist because they don't believe in a God with a flowing white beard. Does that mean that they are an atheist even if they do believe that there is an underlying force that gives order to the universe but can't really give any justification beyond a feeling?

 

Maybe Merlyn LeRoy, you shoud stop assuming people are less knowledgable thatn you and actually know what they are talking about.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I didn't "assume" you didn't know, I said I suspected you didn't know. There IS a difference between those two statements.

 

You do appear to know the difference. This was not at all apparent from your earlier statement, as I've seen people put forth the incorrect "you're not an atheist, you're an agnostic" false dichotomy dozens of times.

[Pint]

This is the UK Scout associations take on things, from Policy, Organisation and Rules chapter 2

 

"With reference to religious belief, the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to appointment to a Leadership position."

 

As for young people, if they can say the scout prommise upon joining, then theres no problem.

 

As for the relegious side of things, when i was dping my ( wood badge ) Leader training in the UK, we were told that Scouting ( in the UK) is not a religeous organisation, but a youth based organisation with a relegeous policy ( see above from POR)

[Rooster7]

I defer to Merlyn on all things atheist...after all, it's his religion. ;-)

[Trevorum]

Yes, I saw your winky-smiley, but for the benefit of others I'd like to emphasize that atheism is NOT a religion in any sense of the word. I'll let the lawyers talk to legal definition of religion, but from a sociological standpoint, atheism can not be classified as a religion because it 1) does not include a system of belief in supernatural beings, forces, or states of being, and 2) does not include a system of ritualized behaviors designed to enhance group identity and solidarity. My 2c.

[JustaHuman]

Hello all. I'm new but please hear me out as I read as a guest and felt like I had something to offer here. I'm an atheist parent of a child who is in scouts. I'm a little surprised at the animosity displayed towards atheists here (or rather, at the judgements placed on what atheists want to do to scouts.)

 

QUOTE: "If I were an atheist, I would know I'd be uncomfortable in... or even a program of ethical uplift. I wouldn't join."

 

You really think atheists aren't ethical? Seriously, do you envision us raising our kids to be little hellions with no morals? WRONG. We have morals and ethics, just without the need of a god to make us do so.

 

QUOTE: "I think: (a) what gives an atheist the "right" to enter an organization in an effort to substantially change it?"

 

What gives an American organization the right to ban people because they're different? AND we don't want to change it substantially. Just for our kids to be treated fairly and allowed to join without saying God (as I make very clear in the rest of my post).

 

QUOTE: "(b) does not such an atheist disrepect the rights of those who are in the organization and support its goals?"

 

We don't disrespect it at all. We respect it enough to want to join (minus the discrimination).

 

QUOTE: "Compromise is not allowing atheists to have it all their own way.. " ------Who said we want to? We ***can't even join*** unless we pretend or else we get booted. We just want to join and have fun with our kids. We want BSA to change to let us join. Just join and participate without being excluded or judged. We'll do the same (not judge) you. Not make you NOT say something if you don't make us SAY it.

 

We simply want to *join* scouts and be a part of it. We don't want or need to change anything about it *except its intolerance* towards people with different beliefs. This is not much different that a black person in the 50s wishing they could be allowed to use the same bathrooms as whites. Should they just be forced to use the "color" bathrooms (or use a smaller, not-as-good restaraunt that has inclusive bathrooms) since the other restaraunt discriminates against them, or speak out because it's wrong? I think we all know the right answer here.

 

Same with scouts and atheists. Why should we be forced to use a smaller, not-as-good organization (spiral/earth scouts) because yours discriminates against us?

 

We teach morals and values that aren't very different at all from yours, with one exception: the lack of belief in a god(s). That doesn't make us bad people nor does it give you a right to ban us from their organization no more than if you wanted to ban African Americans.

 

We want to *simply join* your group. Not take the word God out of the promise. You and your kids can say one little sentence and we won't, is that really such a big deal? I don't care (and most atheists wouldn't) to simply ignore that sentence and let everyone else go along saying it. **It's you guys who are totally opposed to someone NOT saying that sentence.**

 

It really doesn't phase us that you believe. It just bothers you that we don't.

 

QUOTE: "Wow. Hope this movement stays over there, and does not make inroads into the USA. There are so many other similar groups to GUSA and BSA that it seems silly perople can't find an alternate that does not require the oath to God."

 

Yes, we (atheists) want to join BSA. It's a pretty nice thing for our kids too for the most part. Our kids are just regular kids who want to be in on the fun BSA has to offer.

 

The other scout-like options are smaller and much harder to find groups of locally (for myself and many others). Where I live our Boy Scout troop is very small; I can't imagine trying to start a group that has little name recognition here. So yes, BSA is desirable. I just want my kid to have fun camping and hanging out with other kids too. Is that so much to ask?

 

And yes, we're in scouts even though we disagree with some of its values. It's sad we have to hide like to this for fear of "being found out". It really is sad in this day and age and in America.

 

----And my last point:

 

There are more and more atheists in America now. Same with gays. Maybe BSA is losing membership numbers because of intolerance? Not only atheists and gays won't support BSA due to its discrimitory policy, but also freethinking religious people who stand up for the rights of everyone.

 

Those 3 groups of Americans (atheists, gays, and freethinking religious) form a pretty large chunk of Americans, and many are young families with kids. It's now more known about the BSAs intolerance, and maybe many are turned off by it? Or they join and then later find out about it and then quit? (I didn't know about it previous to joining, but discovered after research online).

 

That's long. If you read it all, kudos to you. If not, I hope you will someday and really think about how maybe atheists aren't all bad (we're not really), and how it wouldn't be the end of the world for you or BSA to let us have some camping fun too.

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Those are substantial changes. If you don't think those issues are substantial then join and listen respectfully if someone offers up a prayer or whatever.

 

If acknowledging God is a big deal for you then you should understand that it's a big issue for BSA too.

 

 

[JustaHuman]

QUOTE: "Unfortunately, you have no concept of personal liberty. It's vitally important that private organizations be able to establish an agenda of values a group represents and to admit people who share those values."

 

That's the same as saying that a private organization has the same rights to exclude black people today as they do atheists (or gays).

 

It's as simple as that.

 

If the private ball club wants to exclude a few black people because they're against they're views then you know they'd be bashed all over the news. In some time, it will be the same for organizations that are bigoted against religion (or lack of) and sexual orientation. Maybe it'll take a while, but it will eventually happen. Whether or not BSA is a follower or leader in that event stands to be seen. Blacks had a rough time getting America to see they are equal and shouldn't be allowed to be banned by even private organizations, just as gays and non-religious people are having a hard time now. But blacks overcame, and so will atheists and gays.

[JustaHuman]

(I don't know how to edit my post to add this in, so sorry for double post).

 

QUOTE: Those are substantial changes. If you don't think those issues are substantial then join and listen respectfully if someone offers up a prayer or whatever.

 

No different than if a Buddhist/Hindu/Jew was sitting in on a meeting and a Christian wanted to offer up a prayer. Pretty sure if Jesus was mentioned all 3 of those groups would be offended in some way or another, and likely even if he wasn't mentioned.

 

Also, I've never been disrespectful in life when I've been around others who offer a prayer for whatever reason. I simply bow my head and don't say "Amen" at the end, and everything goes on just as merrily as it was before the prayer. To imply that atheists cannot/will not listen respectfully when someone prays is closed-minded.

 

We even sing Jesus Christmas songs. Oh, the horror! (Jesus is to me as much as a god as Horus, Zeus, and Dioynous before him, so it really makes no difference to me what god we sing about, mythology is all the same.) I understand most atheists probably wouldn't want to sing about Zeus any more Jesus though.

 

QUOTE: If acknowledging God is a big deal for you then you should understand that it's a big issue for BSA too.

 

I understand it's a big issue for BSA (since LDS funds so much money to them and they're afraid they'll form their own non-BSA groups if BSA does the right thing here). I think it is very bigoted and will eventually be overcome (maybe not in a year or two, but I'd say someday). That's why I decided to voice my opinion, even if I'm just one person.

 

I don't see how it's a big deal to let someone not say "in God" (or whatever), while you do say it. It seems like you guys could be happy and so could we and everyone's kids could be enriched. I guess I'm just less judmental of others beliefs when they differ from mine.

 

QUOTE: Far more important to BSA is recruiting more Hispanics, Asians and other minorities. That's where the real potential membership numbers are.

 

Aren't most Asians Buddhist/Hindu or some other Asian religion? (I ask honestly as I don't know the stats for Asians in America off the top of my head). If so the same Christian prayer offered could still be an issue, even though BSA claims to be inclusive of them. Also, I know many Asians are non-believers (in other countries it's pretty common) so I'd assume they would be here too (I could be wrong).

 

QUOTE: The smart move is to ignore the slight impact the homosexual/atheist issue has on membership in favor of concentrating on the Hispanic/Asian/minority populations where the REAL potential members are.

 

Great way to teach kids values, only focus on the money bringers, and not the humanist values (of acceptance)!

 

[OldGreyEagle]

We are not all that far away from celebrating a famous golf tournament in Georgia. The Masters and while I do not follow golf, I do know that Augusta National, the Country CLub that sponsors the Masters is an All Male Club, women need not apply. They are a private club and get to make up their own rules and membership standards.

 

At some point, some organization will protest Augusta National's membership stannards and it may garner some attention, but the Masters will go on and all will be forgotten until next year.

 

The BSA is well within its rights to develop and follow its membership standards. Whehter or not it wants to stand with the August National's of the world is a separate issue

[Trevorum]

Welcome, JustaHuman

[howarthe]

A complete person must develop physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. Boy Scouts of America supports a boy's development in each of these areas, and they do so in the most inclusive way possible, if not the most balance way possible. Spiritual development makes a small portion of the curriculum, so I can see how many might see how scouting would change very little if spiritual development were eliminated all together.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

howarthe writes:

A complete person must develop physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. Boy Scouts of America supports a boy's development in each of these areas, and they do so in the most inclusive way possible.

 

No, the "most inclusive way possible" would include boys the BSA currently excludes. You can't just say it's the most inclusive when it plainly is not, that's ridiculous.

[Beavah]

Yah, JustaHuman, welcome to the forums, eh? While I suspect from the fact that yeh just sort of waded in and resurrected a few old dead threads that you're here mostly to go Trolling, I figure yeh merit a response.

 

If yeh go back through and read some of the innumerable threads on this topic, you'll find that by and large the BSA and most of its scouting units are open to kids who have doubts, who are strugglin' with religious ideas, who are unchurched, who declare themselves atheists for a stretch. Most young people question and struggle to work through these and other big issues, and that's fine.

 

But Scouting in the BSA and most scouting worldwide is not atheist. As an organization and as a movement we profess a Duty to God, and as a Method we incorporate that belief and that duty into our daily practice of scouting. That is an issue of freedom of expression, eh? We are free to express our belief in a Duty to God, and free to include only those people who share that belief - particularly at the adult level, where we're askin' adult members to help teach Duty to God to young people, in both word and example.

 

That's no different from an atheist group that wants to support secular values which might choose not to admit a bunch of fundamentalist Christians. The fundamentalist Christians, especially if they were admitted as leaders, wouldn't work well with the stated values and mission of the organization.

 

I can appreciate how the activities of scouting look (and are) for the most part secular, and how they might be attractive in that way to atheist families. In a similar way, the activities of many Christian youth camps also look largely secular, eh? But in both cases, there is a goal to use those activities to help teach Duty to God, and that may not be comfortable to you as a family. In both cases as well, the resources, both human and financial, are provided by people who believe in the mission of teaching Duty to God and Duty to Country, and it isn't fair for them to give resources for that purpose and then not teach those things.

 

The BSA is not a religious sect, though. So while we believe in and teach Duty to God, we don't try to define "God". Buddhist striving for Enlightenment, Hindu worship of multiple deities, Wiccan attunement to the Goddess or nature spirits, AA's recognition of a Higher Power, all are OK. Sometimes that can make for lively discussions, and we aren't always perfect at balancing majority desires for religious expression with minority expressions or comfort, but then that's part of a Scout learning to be Reverent to his own beliefs, and to be Reverent by respecting others.

 

Nobody in the BSA would say that atheists are "all bad" or not moral or any such thing, though some of us as religionists have a hard time groking a moral system that isn't grounded in deity or at least Natural Law. There is a difference between "we want to teach Duty to God" and "we think atheists are bad". We are the former. We just want to teach and live by Duty to God. For us, that's the "best" type of citizenship. So we want our adults to live by it and to teach our kids to live by it. And since peer leadership and teaching is such an important part of the program, we believe both youth and adults must be willing to accept or at least be open to that mission.

 

Now, you say that you and your kids are in the BSA and that you lie and hide so that you can stay. That's your choice, and only speaks to your family's values and ethics. If you think it's OK to lie to make use of other people's resources and time because you want them, I doubt anybody in Scouting is going to track you down to throw you out. It would just make us a bit sad. We would want to teach your son to be Trustworthy, and Loyal to his own beliefs and those of his family. Down the road, I wonder a bit. When he just wants a college scholarship, will it be OK for him to lie and hide and pretend to be Native American so that he can get a Native American Scholarship or affirmative action admissions advantage? Isn't that really the same thing? Yeh want resources that have been designated to a particular group that yeh aren't part of, so yeh lie to get access to those resources.

 

Yah, I get that it seems righteous and all to compare it to African-Americans and da civil rights movement and all that, except there's a big difference. The mission of a for-profit company is to make money, not to exclude blacks. The mission of a private school is to educate kids, not to exclude blacks. It remains OK for a private organization to exclude blacks if its mission is to advocate for racial separation, just as a black institution may exclude whites if its mission is to serve the development of African-American identity and culture. The first is discrimination, and unjust. The second is expression, and a part of liberty. It is just fine for the NAACP to exclude from its membership white supremacists who do not believe in its mission to advance people of color, and it's just fine for the BSA to exclude from its membership atheists who do not believe in its mission of teaching Duty to God.

 

Beavah