Using SCOUTER.COM for a systematic political agenda

[Eagledad]

>>but I see it as trying to get Scouting to find its way out of principals that I see as outside the Scout Oath and Law.

[Tampa Turtle]

I agree it gets tiresome, folks talk past each other, and it really doesn't sound like a dialogue that will get anywhere. I'd just be happy with a a little more civility in the discussion.

 

I will admit I can suckered in pretty easy.

 

Some of the non-issue discussion have gotten snarky as well at times. And that is a shame as I think the forum is a useful support system on delivering a good program. It has helped our Troop.

[KC9DDI]

He's a member on scoutingforall.org and an atheist social networking site

 

And, he's not even a scouter

 

I wonder if there's a cause-and-effect relationship buried in there somewhere?

 

He's just hear [sic] to tell us what BSA is doing wrong

 

How else can the BSA (or US Scouting in general) improve, unless it's weaknesses are identified?

 

Now many of us wish BSA would get out of these political firestorms as it's not really an internal issue in scouting.

 

It's not an "internal issue" because of the established discriminatory policies which keep certain people external to Scouting.

 

Just don't be a one act play that's repeated over and over and over again.

 

In other words, you want diversity in forum posts, but not in membership?

 

[fred8033]

KC9DDI ... Your line-by-line snarky response isn't useful.

 

KC9DDI wrote: "I wonder if there's a cause-and-effect relationship buried in there somewhere?" Could be or not. But I know plenty of atheists and gay scouters inside scouting who focus on program and not on the politics. I also know plenty of people who choose not to be in scouting because of the politics. It's the ones who choose not to be involved and then daily throw gernades at those trying to do something good that's hurtful.

 

KC9DDI wrote: "How else can the BSA (or US Scouting in general) improve, unless it's weaknesses are identified?" Are you so naive to think they are not identified and known? Come on. It's about social protest techniques to reduce the effectiveness of a group until things change. It's about hijacking discussions to focus on key hot bed topics.

 

KC9DDI wrote: "It's not an "internal issue" because of the established discriminatory policies which keep certain people external to Scouting." You clearly wanted to misunderstand. It's not internal because scouting doesn't teach sexuality and the faith components are optional. If anything, scouting exists to support what the family teaches.

 

KC9DDI wrote: "In other words, you want diversity in forum posts, but not in membership?" What I want is written earlier. Instead of trying to understand what I wrote, you choose to call me a hypocrite. Nice. It's not worth replying as I suspect you'll only see what you want to see.

 

Dude, go pick a fight with someone else.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[KC9DDI]

Not trying to pick a fight at all, Fred, but maybe I'm just not understanding where you're coming from.

 

Cause and effect? The BSA does not allow homosexuals and atheists to serve as adult leaders. Thus, I'm not surprised to learn that an atheist who is unhappy about the BSA's discriminatory policies is not a Scouter. The insinuation seems to be that because he is not a Scouter, he should not be permitted to voice his opinion regarding Scouting-related topics. Even when one of those topics is the very reason that he is not permitted to be a Scouter.

 

You can't just respond to ideas and positions you don't agree with by telling people to shut up and go away.

 

"Are you so naive to think they are not identified and known?" Are they? Do we know that Scouting is a stronger program, or a weaker program, due to discrimination? Nope. Various people may believe that it is stronger, or weaker, or assume one way or the other, or hope one way or the other. But we certainly don't know for sure - we can only speculate on the net effect it has on membership, finances and morality and character building. But we can get a little bit closer to knowing, or at least have more informed opinions, by continuing to research and discuss the issue.

 

Scouting doesn't "teach" sexuality or religion? Learning occurs through more than merit badge classes and training courses. Do you think the youth aren't learning something based on who is and isn't allowed to be a leader in the BSA? If the "faith components" were optional, then those who profess no faith in a higher power wouldn't be excluded from serving in the organization.

 

There's a difference between not wanting to listen to an opinion you disagree with, versus not wanting people to be allowed to express opinions you disagree with. The impression I was getting from your previous post, Fred, was that you fell into the later category. I apologize if I misinterpreted your position.

[fred8033]

KC9DDI wrote: "You can't just respond to ideas and positions you don't agree with by telling people to shut up and go away. " It's ignorant to assume I don't agree or that I'm telling people to shut up and go away. Read to understand before reacting.

 

When my seven year old tells me he's hungry, I feed him. When he tells me he's still hungry, I find something more for him. When he tells me he's hungry five minutes later, I might find something more for him. If he tells me he's hungry again within another five minutes, it's a very different issue all together. That is what I was commenting on.

 

KC9DDI wrote: "There's a difference between not wanting to listen to an opinion you disagree with, versus not wanting people to be allowed to express opinions you disagree with. The impression I was getting from your previous post, Fred, was that you fell into the later category. I apologize if I misinterpreted your position. Apology accepted. The example I often use is when I entered into a friendship to later realize the guy only wanted me in his Amway network. Same thing here. This is a site for discussing scouting issues. But if your only desire is being a social protester, your going to get a bad name for yourself ... independent of your beliefs.

[Trevorum]

A lot of us respect Merlyn for his vision, his ethical compass and his persistence, even if his delivery is brusque and impatient. Sort of like Kudu

[packsaddle]

Heck (am I allowed to say that?), for that matter I kind of miss Rooster7, Bob White (sorry NJ), and littlebillie. What happened to you littlebillie? Where did you go?

Oh yeah, that professional lurker, Dave Steele...are you listening?

[acco40]

Miss Rooster7? Packsaddle, my opinion of your profundity just dropped.

 

As I post this I happen to see a "Donate Today" advertisement for Ron Paul who exclaims it will now take $6M to win in Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Florida & Nevada (vs. $4M of yesterday).

 

The pattern of asking a question and getting a reply one isn't really looking for and then haranguing the respondent is fairly typical in this forum.

[packsaddle]

Acco40,

I guess that's about, what, a 50% inflation rate? In one day? H'mm, sounds about right.

 

There are a couple of ways to look at this. One way is sometimes to think of all this as a game of tag...not to be taken very seriously. Yes, Rooster and I used to mix it up but I actually liked the guy. For that matter I can't think, off hand, of anyone in these forums whom I held bad feelings toward, with the possible exception of that guy (who's name escapes me just now) who kept showing up as different personalities and was somewhat dishonest about things.

I suspect Rooster didn't feel the same way toward me but I get that pretty often. I didn't agree with much of anything he thought but I believe he was sincere. And that goes a long way with me.

But for me, the best way to view things is to ask a question: how can I learn from people with whom I am in agreement? The answer is that I tend to learn more (and faster) from people who are willing to attack my ideas and allow me to attack theirs. I need adversaries to do two things: 1) teach me things I don't know and 2) disagree with me so I can hone my ideas a little sharper. I dislike some ideas. But that doesn't mean I must also dislike the person holding the idea. How else do you think I could possibly survive in the South?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[sherminator505]

At the risk of making this an "all about Merlyn" thread, I'd respect him more if he had something constructive to offer. Still, I find him more tolerable than say, fermi91 or Kawidaphoenix.

[Callooh! Callay!1428010939]

Systematic political agenda?

 

What's wrong with being systematic about advocating for an agenda that is good, right, and beneficial?

 

Harumphers should harumph specific systematic political agendas rather than issuing a blanket harumph in the general direction of all systematic political agendas.

 

The United States of America was born through the efforts of systematic political agenda pushers.

 

[NJCubScouter]

Packsaddle says:

 

Heck (am I allowed to say that?), for that matter I kind of miss Rooster7, Bob White (sorry NJ), and littlebillie.

 

Did someone mention my name? (Well actually part of my pseudonym.) I actually haven't posted here in a couple of months myself, but nobody misses me, apparently.

 

I suppose I could give some of the reasons why I don't miss Bob White, but then you as a moderator would have to decide whether you needed to redact part of my response to your own post... or you could leave it to the other moderators. Do I want to give you guys work to do, in my first post in the new year?

 

Which reminds me, Happy New Year everybody! Finally a holiday in the "holiday season" that everybody can agree on.

[packsaddle]

Actually I did notice your absence. And missed it. I might have even tried to provoke you a couple of times by writing 'ditto'. But then gave up. Happy New Year and welcome back.

[Trevorum]

I missed you too, NJ