When will National realize this *IS* affecting membership

[moosetracker]

Eamonn - I don't see the Catholic Church changing to support gays either.. But I don't think of the Catholic Church as so narrow minded as to protest the right of other churches or organizations to make up their own minds on the issue, and thus to break ties with sponsering any BSA Unit because BSA gave the choice of what constitutes "morally straight" in all aspects to the Charter Organization..

 

Most Catholic churches will be fine that they still have the option to choose for themselves to still exclude homosexuals.. A few narrow minded CO's may ditch a few of the units in protest of it.. But I think the Catholics are fine with worrying about carring about their own congregation, rather then forcing their views on the whole world..

 

I could be wrong, I am not Catholic, but it seems more the LDS church that likes to weld that threat, to keep BSA in line.

[Eagle92]

All I can say is this. The one CO that dropped their unit BEFORE Dale v BSA was decided did so because they did not want anything to do with homosexuals. They were informed about how they got to pick their leaders, but they were concerened about OTHER unit's leaders.

 

Also I will be doing some research a 1970s abuse scandal that hit the New Orleans council, and how it affected membership. I have anecdotal evidence from one mother, my own, but I want to see what's out there.

[moosetracker]

Eagle92 - that is then fear from ignorance.. The only reason there would be fear like that is if they believed homosexuals were the same a pedophiles.. Because other units leaders would have little influence over their sons.. They are probably currently that close to some now, and do not even know it..

 

 

So the closest scary thing I can think of is now going to a camp and finding a camp staff person who shows effeminate traits, so they would need to move their scouts to a different merit badge.. Other then that, they will have control over who their scouts use for merit badge counsilors..

 

If they don't have effeminate traits they will not even know who is gay and who is now.. Like life, they probably do buisness with a homosexual accountant, or waiter, or store clerk.. They just don't know who is or isn't because they are not forced to wear "the sign of the homo" on their foreheads.

[Eamonn]

Working where I do in a State Correctional facility, I get to meet and talk with all sorts of convicted criminals.

While of course there are exceptions to every rule.

So far all the pedophiles that I've met have been white married men.

Most are doing time for what they did too kids that were related to them.

While I don't have the qualifications to back it up, I do think that these guys are sick.

I have worked with a good many men who are gay. While I might not see having or wanting to have sex with other men as normal,(They very well might not understand me having or wanting to have sex with a female.) These gay men are not sick.

In fact most are very caring and very honest.

Ea.

 

[BadenP]

Eamonn

 

My God man that last post of yours is so out of touch with reality it is almost scary. If these convicted criminals are such "good and honest men" then why are they behind bars, I think you are way too close to the picture to be truly objective. It is like saying a Catholic priest pedophile is really a good and holy man, which he is not and neither are those guys behind bars. All of those guys who commit pedophilia, especially repeat offenders, should be chemically castrated on a nationwide basis. Pedophiles, like serial killers, etc., are mentally ill and need to be taken out of the general population for its own protection.

 

The gay issue is another issue alltogether, however I do not think that there are myriads of gays and lesbians out there waiting or even wanting to join the BSA. The potential loss of chartering organizations and their membership units however could be bigger than you think. If there is a committed gay couple with a child in a pack and one or both wanted to be a leader that should be allowed IMO because there is not the threat factor there for parents to worry about. However that unit better be ready to lose members if my scenario became a reality, because people will be people.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[moosetracker]

Well, it is definately affecting enrollment. Our largest city in our district the one which always is where we not only the majority of ours scouts is in, but we get most our active leaders who work not just at the unit level but helps out in district is close to colapsing by lack of new scouts entering the cub scout level... Which will kill the troops in 4 to 5 years..

 

What is the problem? Not being able to recruit in schools.. Maybe more the results of the actions of the athiests then the homosexuals, but none the less due to our discrimination practices.. Allowing athiest would be a little more difficult. Not because I think they are immoral, but because they would need to accept that the Scout oath will not change for them, and they would need to be content with not saying part of the oath, then demanding everyone change to the oath to their belief.. And the current BSA would have to live with a part of the oath not being followed... That will be more of a difficult hill to climb.

 

They will be attempting an out of school fun day to pull in interest, but the future look bleak, for the troops of this city and eventually for the district leadership, unless the leaders of the other towns in the district start preparing to become the dog rather then the tail of the dog.

[Lisabob]

Remind me why you can't recruit in schools?

 

This is different from schools chartering units (which won't or shouldn't happen, given BSA's exclusive stance)

 

My understanding of the PATRIOT act renewal is that it contained a provision requiring public schools to grant recruiting access to the BSA on par with any other group. So for example, if any other group can distribute flyers or send things home in the kids' weekly packets, so can the BSA. Is this not the case where you are, Moose?

 

 

[Cambridgeskip]

Baden P - I think you have misunderstood Eamon's post. I read it as meaning that those in prison for peadophilia were sick and that the gay men (who presumably are in for something else) were the caring ones, albeit caring men who have somewhat gone off the rails.

[moosetracker]

I am not sure the full details.. Just was told with everyone else at our round table that we were hurting due to not being able to send flyers in mail.. It could be a blackout on all youth recruitment..

 

I did some research this morning and put togeather what I thought were the brightest & best ideas from various past threads on how hold a fun recruitment night outside of school, that would draw community interest.. There was also one idea about all the youth programs comming together to put out one flyer listing all the various programs.. Someone said that their school board was open to a single combined flyer, maybe ours would be too.. And if all youth programs are blacked out, everyone is in the same boat..

 

I really don't know, I do know I heard there was some push back starting around December. Our DE asked my husband "Advancement Chair" to let him know of any Eagle projects for the school were being done, so he could get a toe in.. If it was a total blackout on all programs promoting, I am unsure what this would have bought him..

[packsaddle]

Lisa, in our area, on a school-by-school basis (policy determined by school board or, in some cases, the principal), there is often a policy which excludes any such recruitment unless it is a school-sponsored or school/classroom-related activity. This allows school sports recruiting and things like school field trips, but excludes all external organizations and interests. It saves classroom time and distractions from the business at hand, or at least that's what I've been told.

[BadenP]

Cambridge

 

You are correct.

 

Eamonn

Sorry I really did misread your last post, please ignore my response to it, mea culpa.

[jrush]

Eamonn, I think the BSA knows perfectly well gays aren't pedos...the BSA excludes them because 50% of scouts nationwide are chartered by conservative churches who soundly object to homosexuality on purely moral grounds, and the other 50% of scouts are charterd by organizations which quite frankly don't care if the BSA excludes gays or not.

 

 

[vol_scouter]

Also, pedophiles do not molest pubertal or post-pubertal youth - homosexuals do (hebephiles to be precise). Pedophiles molest pre-pubertal youth and is typically heterosexual.

[jrush]

Vol, I'll be more specific:

 

The BSA knows that emotionally stable gay men do not go after males whom they are responsible for, whether they are ministers, coaches, youth leaders, etc, etc. Gay *men* date gay *men*. The individuals who go after males in their charge, whether they are 8 or 18, are not doing so because they are gay but because they want to take advantage of youth whom they have an emotional hold over.

 

I'd be willing to bet you that exactly zero percent of the scout leaders who have been found guilty of molesting teenage males in their charge would self-identify as homosexual or bisexual.

 

So, semantics aside, gay men do not present a physical or sexual threat to boys in scouting. They present a moral threat. Anyone who believes the "gay scoutmasters will turn our kids gay or try to sneak into the showers with them" has been drinking the proverbial kool-aid. There's no need for that BS argument. The argument is a purely moral one, and officially, that's what the BSA stands on. Quite frankly, if you subscribe to a conservative Christian, Jewish or Islamic creed, that argument is enough.

[SeattlePioneer]

Sorry jrush, I do not find your personal assurances reassuring.

 

And it's more an issue of who is standing up in front being an example for boys and young men. Perhaps you find the example of a Cubmaster and his boyfriend holding hands to be charming. That's not the example I want to provide for boys, young men or parents.

 

Nor do I find the evangelical efforts of the gay rights advocates to sell their views to be charming. In case you haven't noticed, they are NEVER happy, and always have new ways to try to impose their views on society. In California, it's currently redesigning school text books to feature a politically correct number of homosexuals for children to admire.

 

So no thanks. Cub Scouts doesn't need it and neither does Boy Scouts. There are ample good reasons to keep the gay rights movement out of Scouting in my view.