When will National realize this *IS* affecting membership

[BS-87]

Kids model their role models. Boys will try to make themselves more authoritative if they are fond of their Scoutmaster for how strict and well managed his group is. Boys will learn how to use more detail in storytelling if there is a leader they love hearing talk around the campfire.

 

Boys also model their behavior in relationships after what they notice from their adult role models. They are always watching, learning, and adapting.

 

An openly gay leader creates a role model who may be the great authoritarian and boys model that part of him more than anything else, but they'll also notice the relationships/behaviors of that openly gay leader and model their own actions after that. While no parent I know would chastise their son for being gay, they most certainly wouldn't prefer their son to learn how to form relationships and affections from an openly gay person.

 

Traditional heterosexual methods of courtship, relationship progression, and methods of showing affection are preferable to homosexual. For this reason, openly gay individuals do not make the kind of role model for relationships that Boy Scouts need to become great American men and citizens.

[moosetracker]

Well maybe you should rip your children out of the school system, as they will higher homosexual teachers. Really anything like daycare, non-BSA summer camps etc.. need to abide by the government policy of non-discrimination.

 

Homosexuality does not rub off.. I went through the school system with a few teachers I admired, but thought might be gay.. You model what you admire, you note the oddities at first, then after a while don't even notice.

 

Your Great story teller Burps & Farts alot..Your Scoutmaster with the well discipline group, has the bad habit of playing pocket pool..

[The Blancmange]

>>>>Boys also model their behavior in relationships after what they notice from their adult role models. They are always watching, learning, and adapting.

 

An openly gay leader creates a role model who may be the great authoritarian and boys model that part of him more than anything else, but they'll also notice the relationships/behaviors of that openly gay leader and model their own actions after that. While no parent I know would chastise their son for being gay, they most certainly wouldn't prefer their son to learn how to form relationships and affections from an openly gay person.

[BS-87]

Etiquette is a behavior, and your examples can and should be something other leaders correct the crude leader on.

 

A smoker can just not smoke on campouts or near kids.

 

A gay leader doesn't stop being gay just because he's around kids.

[moosetracker]

No.. The Belching & Burping comes from a medical condition.. And we do know how boys love to emulate burping & Belching.. Lets toss the bum out...

[shortridge]

Traditional heterosexual methods of courtship, relationship progression, and methods of showing affection are preferable to homosexual. For this reason, openly gay individuals do not make the kind of role model for relationships that Boy Scouts need to become great American men and citizens.

 

Uhmm... can you explain what the homosexual methods of courtship, relationship progression and showing affection are?

 

Do you mean like asking someone on a date? Going on more frequent dates, going on trips together, getting to know one's family, spending the night together? Holding hands, hugging, kissing?

 

Or is there some sort of secret homosexual approach to relationships that we don't know about?

[Horizon]

If I ran a secret ballot at my Troop, it would probably be around 50/50 or so. Then again, how about a secret ballot about letting Mormon, Muslim or Jewish leaders into your unit? How about women as Scoutmasters? I am sure that in any unit there are people that, in secret, would happily exclude a large number of people from leadership positions in Scouting.

 

As to camping - I have sent my son on multi-day trip with his gay youth Minister. I had no concerns any more than I was worried about the female youth leaders. I know the people and trust them.

 

I would love to see a good survey of former Scouts with sons, to see if the current restrictions prevent them from enrolling their children. I know of some anecdotally (two Eagles who are hesitant to enroll their sons), but I don't know what the national numbers are.

[perdidochas]

Horizon,

 

Under current rules, a COR can reject those of different faiths or women as Boy Scout leaders.

[Horizon]

I realize that, I am more interested in what the general Scouting public think about that. How many people are in an integrated Troop, but would rather have a Troop that does not allow certain groups in leadership positions? I wonder how many people are even aware that the unit has that right? The only units around me that I am aware of that limit are the LDS Troops (leaders must be members of the congregation).

[scoutmom0618]

So, I would pull out for sure if the policy was changed. By the way, I DID take my son out of public school because I wanted to make sure that the role models he had while in his formative years were the ones that I was comfortable with.

 

While I could pull out all of my reasons for not wanting homosexuals around my children, I won't.. However, the bottom line for me is if I don't agree with the foundations of an organization, I dont join...I find something else to join. Seems kind of crazy to me if there are so many that want an organization like BSA to have openly gay leaders why has someone not formed one instead of trying to hijack the moral views of BSA. That is what conservatives have to do such as with the frontier girls/ GSA.

 

Just seems to me that if people cared and were actually concerned enough about it, they would leave BSA and start their own BSA type of organization or is it just that a few people want to force thier beliefs and way of life on those who don't want to live that way? Hmm...wonder how many people would join that new type of organization? I may be wrong but I do not think it would have much of a following especially in my neck of the woods.

[Basementdweller]

As I watch the world and ecomonys leaving "us" behind I read scoutmoms post.

 

My world is not monoculture or monochromatic. Lots of those and thems in these posts.

 

It is pretty easy to judge from the land of Lexus and 60" flat screens. did it ever occur to anyone that in the real world you isolated scouts will have to actually deal with these folks, maybe on a daily basis.

 

If you have never been to a party hosted by a gay couple you are missing one fantastic event. they know how to put on a really great party. My cousin is gay, he and his life partner put on one heck of a christmas party. If you can drop your prejudice long enough to chat with them you will for get their sexual orientation.

 

Bottom line is if a scouter is acting out his homosexuality in front of the boys he's gone, Just as if a heterosexual couple is acting out in front of the boys.

[skeptic]

SM618; You need to understand that "common sense" and "reality" are no longer rational ways to respond. After all, the PC crowd has "all the answers", and "know better" than we "out of touch" commoners.

 

The same empty nest PCers making many of the comments and authoritarian statements, if confronted with "their own sons" being in that unit with an acknowledges Gay would more often than not find a reason to not have the boy in it. What many espouse is totally different than what they will do when confronted with the reality.

 

Again, that is why local CO control should be the rule. Few would survive if they made that choice; certainly they would likely never be highly successful. Your point about starting a separate group that follows similar ideas, other than those awful ones they do not like is valid; but they will not do it, as they really know they are likely to not succeed. For some reason they seem to think they should be able to dictate what others should do and think, rather than simply living their own lives in whatever way they want, while allowing others to do the same.

 

As always, JMO

 

 

[BS-87]

At most, I think the fair compromise that will come from National is allowing CO's to make their own determinations for their own Units.

 

However, that may scare off a lot of CO's who don't want that responsibility or are afraid of backlash and demonstrators/protests and other theatrics surrounding them.

[nugent725]

I am actually kind of appalled by some of the responses here. Can anyone honestly tell me how discrimination fits into the Scout Law? For those who do not see how ridiculous these arguments are, replace the word gay/homosexual with the word black/African-American. I know some people will read this and say that that argument doesn't hold water, but bear in mind that the issue of non-segregation in troops was a highly debated topic until the end of the civil rights movement. In fact, the Church of LDS didn't allow black Scouts to be SPL until 1974, when they and the BSA came under pressure from the NAACP.

 

Also, for those making the "role model" argument...that is a load of hogwash. I didn't end up being a straight married man because that's what my SM was when I was a youth. I'm straight because that is the way I was born, not because of some external social influence. While I will admit the extreme merit of the Differential Association theory (http://criminology.fsu.edu/crimtheory/sutherland.html), it doesn't apply to this situation.

 

Additionally, the Scouting movement is to be asexual. In my opinion, this should apply to both adults and youth. Just because a SM is heterosexual does not make it any more acceptable for them to display their sexuality to/in front of youth.

 

Finally, just because someone is homosexual does not automatically mean that they are either a pedophile, or an individual with uncontrollable lust that will make a pass at any individual of the same gender. For the argument of "I wouldn't want my son camping alone with a homosexual man", then I have to ask - Would you want your son camping alone with a heterosexual man? Aren't we forgetting that there is a reason why two deep leadership exists? One more nugget to ponder is that our YP training exists because of the bad actions of a few Scouters in the past, who were not gay, but rather heterosexual pedophiles who prey upon young boys.

 

Well, that's my two cents...

[Horizon]

Scoutmom0618 said "Just seems to me that if people cared and were actually concerned enough about it, they would leave BSA and start their own BSA type of organization or is it just that a few people want to force their beliefs and way of life on those who don't want to live that way? Hmm...wonder how many people would join that new type of organization? I may be wrong but I do not think it would have much of a following especially in my neck of the woods. "

 

Simple - the gay issue is only one issue. The BSA is still one of the best organizations for young men around, and does a great job of developing leadership, citizenship and a general love of the outdoors. I have put decades into Scouting, and have no wish to end it. While I disagree with the anti-gay stance of the BSA, that is not enough to get me to quit. That does not mean, however, that I won't work within the system to try to reform it to match the moral stance of my church. Right now the BSA does not follow the Law of Reverent in regards to my congregation (PCUSA), nor does the BSA align with the membership rules of my former employer, The United States Marine Corps.

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/09/local/la-me-1009-gay-pride-marines-20111010

 

Now - I don't want the BSA to be required to take gay leaders. I simply want the Charter Orgs to be allowed to make this decision as it pertains to their faith. If your unit doesn't want to camp with one with a gay leader at summer camp - fine with me. I already had the Mormons kick my unit out of their summer camp week one year at the Council Camp - I am used to it.