article: Potomac Falls woman removed from son’s Boy Scout troop

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

http://www.loudountimes.com/index.php/news/article/potomac_falls_woman_removed_from_sons_boy_scout_troop123/

 

For some of you who continue to say there's no problem ignoring the rules (which I hear all the time is easily done to admit atheist kids):

 

 

Steele approached the scout master, Mike Tucker, to inform him of her partnership of nearly two decades with Funk. He told her there was no problem.

 

The way Steele and Funk explain it is the reason why her homosexuality was overlooked was due to locality local organizations can choose to overlook some of the Boy Scouting standards.

 

...according to Steele and Funk, Inabinett went straight to the Boy Scouts of America with his complaint to get her removed as an assistant scout master and it worked.

 

He didnt go through those steps. He skipped over the scout master, he skipped over the committee, he skipped over the district. He went straight to the highest level because thats where he would get his answer. He went to the highest point to get me removed, Steele said.

 

 

Oh, and witch hunts never, ever happen:

 

 

Even other assistant scout masters from Steeles troop felt it was vindictive, like Joe Leonard.

 

I saw that he was vindictive and on a witch hunt because he asked her personal friends what her sexuality was.

 

 

So one vindictive ASM apparently doesn't follow proper channels and goes on a witch hunt to throw out a lesbian, even though a lot of people want her to stay. The BSA would never stand for a personal vendetta, right?

 

Oh, wrong. She's out, of course. According to the article, she can't even go on campouts with her son, even as a parent.

 

[Basementdweller]

Now explain to me why she could not go camping as a parent???????

 

I have a number of friends who have chose an alternative lifestyle. They are great people, just can't be a member of the bsa is all.

[Scoutfish]

For some of you who continue to say there's no problem ignoring the rules (which I hear all the time is easily done to admit atheist kids):

 

Apples and oranges. Scoutds are not adult leaders are not scouts.

 

And, as much as I think it sucks that somebody can be so vindictive - and his utter arrogant and ignorant attitude - he is actually only pointing out a rule that does exist.

 

Now I think you might realkize that while alot of us might not have an issue with a gay leader based on personal knowledge of that leader...we never said that the rule didn'rt exist or that we wouldn't expect BSA to enforce it.

 

 

But that still has nothing to do with a youth scout. Youth being the key word.

 

And as a parent, she does have the right to go. That is where Inabinett is showing arrogance. BSA does not impose rules about parents sexuality.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm... what an oddly written and poorly researched article. They can't even get da simple things right like the difference between Cub Scout and Boy Scout programs, that a den leader doesn't run a troop, etc. And I love the bit about ASM training usually taking a full year. I wonder in what alternate universe that is?

 

So here we have in essence a lesbian woman sign up as an ASM for a conservative Christian church's scouting program, despite what has to be by now the completely well known and obvious policy of the BSA and of that church. She is quickly found out, and the conservative Christian church removes her as a leader from their program.

 

What exactly is the problem?

 

Yeh don't really believe that a conservative Christian church should be forced to take all comers as leaders in their program, do yeh?

 

And they feel "bullied" because someone asked 'em what their sexuality was? Surely yeh jest.

 

Her son is apparently still welcome and happy in the program. What exactly is the problem here, other than a bunch of public whining that some people don't agree with their lifestyle choice? Some people don't agree with my lifestyle choice or profession either, eh? Make all kinds of jokes about it even.

 

Get over it.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[moosetracker]

I do agree the policy does cause the zealots to go on witch hunts, regardless of the BSA words "to disagree but respect"..

 

I am unsure this was quite a witch hunt, as she wasn't private or discrete, which means the man did not have to snoop for an answer, he asked an innocent question and got an answer that caused his conseravative beliefs to go all squirmy with homo-phobia..

 

And the truth is the BSA policy will support it..

 

The emails went too far, but it just shows his ignorance of what homosexuality is, if he feels he can talk and reason and preach someone into changing their ways, like it is a choice, and can be changed as easily as buying a new pair of sneakers..

 

Otherwise the going to the top, is his reaction to his feeling that it was that serious a matter.. We have advised people to go to the SE if we think it is that serious.

 

But, I believe this guy has just lost alot of support and respect from the local scouting community he is in. He may himself have to leave for a new group when he finds he is shunned, and gets no help or cooperation from his fellow scouters.. He has made no friends, and may feel persecuted himself..

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

scoutfish writes:

Apples and oranges. Scoutds are not adult leaders are not scouts.

 

Assuming I can parse that, are you saying an atheist youth couldn't be thrown out in exactly the same way?

 

Beavah writes:

despite what has to be by now the completely well known and obvious policy of the BSA and of that church.

 

That unwritten policy you mean? The one the SM told her there was no problem?

 

You mean like those easily-ignorable policies that people here insist are no problem to ignore for atheist kids?

 

Yeh don't really believe that a conservative Christian church should be forced to take all comers as leaders in their program, do yeh?

 

Of course not. But you're one of the people who seem to think that units can keep people who don't meet the membership requirements.

 

Get over it.

 

Get over what? You think this issue is ever, ever going to go away? It's NEVER going away.

 

[Scoutfish]

Assuming I can parse that, are you saying an atheist youth couldn't be thrown out in exactly the same way?

 

I am saying that as a youth, you are a youth. You are not athiest until you are 18. You arew not gay, you are not Bi you are not anything but a youth...until you are 18.

 

Once you are 18, there are procedures that have to be followed wether I agree with them or not.

 

But from my stand point, I don't ask if people are athiest or not, I do not ask wether people are gay or hetero. I just don't ask that kind of stuff because I do not feel it is my buisness.

 

But, a youth is a youth is a youth is not 18 yet.

 

And I don't care if mom or dad are whatever..the youth is not mom and dad. The youth is the youth.

 

I did/do not follow, believe, or feel the same about everything my parents do/did.

 

I'll treat the scouts the same way.

 

 

" Assuming I can parse that, are you saying an atheist youth couldn't be thrown out in exactly the same way "

 

Now here's the thing. WEther it actually happens does not mean it is supposed to happen. People get bent out of shape, hyper active and tunnelvisoion. They chase after and go after goals witha vengance.

 

Not every rule is followed the way it should be and at different times, one person\'s interpretation may trump another person's interpretation, even in it was correct.

 

In Cub Scouts for example: The COR or IH are the only people who can hire /fire a Cub Master or Committee Chair.

 

BUT... In the real world, there are pack that have had their committees fire a CM or CC . Anbd the CM or CC left.

IT wasn't correct, wasn't right, and it was done with a vigorous attitude.

 

So while not being "right" or "correct"...it still happens. And it happens openly and in the court of public opinion.

 

Kinda like running into a group of old school country lady-folk. They will tell you athiests are devil worshipers.

 

We both know that to be incorrect. I mean really, it doesn't even make sense does it? But tell and try to convince them old ladies of that and see where it gets you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Assuming I can parse that, are you saying an atheist youth couldn't be thrown out in exactly the same way?

 

I am saying that as a youth, you are a youth. You are not athiest until you are 18. You arew not gay, you are not Bi you are not anything but a youth...until you are 18.

 

Assuming I can parse that, are you saying an atheist youth couldn't be thrown out in exactly the same way?

 

Now here's the thing. WEther it actually happens does not mean it is supposed to happen.

 

Well, I'm under the impression that atheist youth are "supposed" to be refused membership.

[Beavah]

Like it is a choice? Of course it's a choice.

 

I'm a heterosexual and I do occasionally find ladies other than Mrs. Beavah sexually attractive. That doesn't mean that I am obligated by virtue of my very nature to go fornicate with all of 'em! Nor does it mean I'm a one-night-stand-aphobe.

 

Merlyn, by "get over it" I meant they should get over their whining. As women they can't be Catholic priests, as Anglos they might not be eligible to represent the Latino community forum, as physicians (or whatever) they're not eligible to join the state bar association. Get over it.

 

I made my choice at da altar with Mrs. Beavah. That means I can't do some things. Not welcome at da Single's Club any more, eh? They made their choice in their relationship, that means they can't be an adult leader in a conservative Christian youth program. Presumably the benefits outweigh the downside.

 

Their kid is still welcome in Scouting and is happily pursuing his scouting activities with everyone's support.

 

Again, what's the issue?

 

And again, what about our position being different for youth and adults can't yeh get through your head? Adults have required training, youth don't. Adults get background checks. Youth don't. Youth can earn Eagle Scout. Adults can't. Adults are expected to behave themselves responsibly, and will get removed if they don't. Youth we expect to misbehave, and they get a lecture on Scout Spirit and a round of cleanin' the latrine.

 

We treat youth and adults differently. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Adam S]

"Skip" is a Lawyer so no surprise that he worried about the letter of the law and not the fact that the troop was operating better then most (at least from the article) and that She was in a relationship with the same woman for NINETEEN years, which really is strinking since not 10 minutes before I read this I read an article on CNN about elevated divorce rates in the bible belt...

 

 

"Skip"'s linken profile

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/james-j-%22skip%22-inabinett-jr/30/ba8/980

 

CNN article on Bible belt divorces

http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/08/25/divorce.bible.belt/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1

 

 

 

I think the interesting thing here is that National not only had nothing to do with the removal (which is a NATIONAL policy per everything I have always seen or heard) but they claim "Units determine their own membership" Does this mean that Units truly can decide their own Scouters and Scouts despite national policy?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quoted from:

http://www.loudountimes.com/index.php/news/article/potomac_falls_woman_removed_from_sons_boy_scout_troop123/

 

"But according to Deron Smith, the director of public relations for the Boy Scouts of America, Steele wasnt removed from the national council and it may have been a troop decision. Units determine their own membership, Smith said.

 

The [boy Scouts of America] recognizes that some do not agree with its position on this issue, but values the freedom of everyone to express their opinion and teaches its members to use courtesy and respect at all times, Smith said in an email. To disagree does not mean to disrespect. The [boy Scouts of America] will continue to strengthen common interests, while respecting differences and will focus on its mission and on reaching as many youth as possible in order to help them grow into good, strong citizens.

 

[ScoutNut]

What the heck is a "Blue and Gold Award", and how does one go about "winning" it?

 

What a horrible writing job. The school that gave that author a degree in Journalism should be ashamed.

 

It seems (if anything can be believed in that writing mess) that these parents (or at least the one who was a trained(?) BSA volunteer for six years) did understand BSA's policies, and did understand that some of the folks in a "relatively conservative church", might not approve of them. However they "still drove forward" and joined the Troop anyway.

 

A shame at what happened, but not really a surprise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[moosetracker]

Beavah - you chose Mrs. Beavah as your partner for life, that was your choice.. If someone tommorrow turned the world upside down and told you you could not be partnered with a female and must choose a male partner, who would you choose then??

 

Those who are homosexual could choose to become celibate, be in a monogamous relationship with one same sex partner (like you and your Mrs.. (and the woman in the story)), or choose to be a swinging single.. One other choice, they could pretend to the world and act like a heterosexual, find someone they truly dont love, lie to them, and probably spend a lifetime making themselves and their partner very unhappy..

 

So in that way they do have choices just as you can choose to be celibate, married, a swinging single, or pretend to to the world and an unsuspecting partner to be homosexual..

 

What they do not have a choice in is they cannot make a choice to be happily and honestly heterosexual.. As I am sure you would agree that you could not make a choice to be happily and honestly homosexual..

 

This woman chose a monogamous relationship that was honest.. Problem is because of her choice to be open about the relationship. That makes it a right of BSA to cancel her membership.

Problem is we do not have a policy against the wife swappers or wildly swinging singles or practice adultery or other sexual deviant behavior.. But, any other sexually diviation is just fine as long as it is heterosexual.

 

Now what is this about the youth will not be ousted on a witch hunt because they are youth? If a boy goes to their Eagle court and claims to be an atheist they will not earn the eagle and the decision will be upheld at National.. Ok that is not quite kicking them out, but I would imagine if what we were discussing last week about the troop on a witch hunt over the rumored possible homosexuality of a youth where 5 adults placed him in a room with the rest of the troop having nothing to do but stand outside and speculate on the proceedings.. Where they tried to get him to confess, and he refused, and they told him he had no rights while they investigate.. While all in that form thought the proceeding was horrendous, and worthy to be brought straight to the attention of the SE.. Everyone in that forum told me I was wrong to insist that a youth who thinks themselves homosexual or an atheist should not be kicked out because they are youth and not adults.. In that thread the consensus was the troop should not go on a witch-hunt over rumors, but if the youth was open about their choices, they should be kicked out of scouting.

 

[RememberSchiff]

I think its disappointing its a sad day for Boy Scouting. I think the actions are really out of sync of what scouting stands for, Eric Ianson, a friend of Steeles and an Eagle Scout said.

...

 

I mean, when the leaders of the troop hear that (the Scout Law), how does it feel? Were they loyal to Denise? It certainly wasnt kind what theyve done to her, Ianson continued. It absolutely isnt brave. The brave thing to do would be to take a stand here and say this isnt right, this person has been great to our kids and its time to stand up for her and be great for her.

 

Even other assistant scout masters from Steeles troop felt it was vindictive, like Joe Leonard.

 

I saw that he was vindictive and on a witch hunt because he asked her personal friends what her sexuality was. Theres no business in that. Its a shame that a good leader for the boys has been removed because of one person whos eccentric when it comes to his religious belief, Leonard said. Its also a sad not that [boy Scouts of America] has not or is not willing to entertain what other private organizations have done and their beliefs.

 

Good points.

 

IMO, an organization that builds character would teach "do the right thing" and an organization that builds leaders would lead by example and show how to right the wrongs. Yes, even private organizations can change, we once did not allow females as scout leaders.

 

Now if those troop adult leaders and parents who thought this was wrong took action, formed a new troop with a fairer charter organization, and asked Ms. Steele to be COR ...could be a win-win.

 

My $0.02,(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)

[SMT224]

This is a hard issue. What would I do if a woman and her son joined the Troop and she told me she was an active homosexual and would like to be a leader in the troop? Or if a man and his son joined and he told me he was an active homosexual and would like to be a leader in the troop? As much as I may or may not like a particular person, or how valuable they may be as a leader, would I have any choice but to let them know what BSA rules are?

 

As others have said, a parent can still provide significant assistance to a Troop. This to me would be a "work around" that would still allow such a parent to participate and yet not be an official "Adult Leader".

 

My personal feeling is that it's none of my business what kind of sex anyone has in the privacy of their own bedroom -- not the two women described in the OP article -- and certainly not the old guys on our Troop Committee!!! I just don't want to know! Please don't shove it in my face, and I really don't see how it affects the ability to teach knots, fire building, or other Scoutcraft or Campcraft skills.

 

But, a rule is a rule, just as my daughter couldn't join the Troop even though at 12 she really wanted to do the things Boy Scouts do. My work around to this was to become a Girl Scout Leader and do "Boy Scout" camping thing with her Girl Scout Troop.

 

Quite frankly I think old "Skip" should have kept his nose out of other peoples business. It could have been her sister picking her up for all he and the rest of the Troop knew. If a male leader gets picked up by his brother, or cousin, or uncle, does he assume the guy is gay and his personal history be investigated? Seriously, the witch-hunt charge is that the guy decided to pursue the issue in the first place. Unless the two were making out in the car after the pick up, I fail to see how it was his business to pursue.

[Eagledad]

>>IMO, an organization that builds character would teach "do the right thing" and an organization that builds leaders would lead by example and show how to right the wrongs.