Local YMCA boots troop over gay issue

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

SeattlePioneer writes:

Frankly, this is exactly the kind of invidious discrimination that is most offensive.

 

So what are you going to do about it?

 

I got rid of thousands of illegal, discriminatory BSA units chartered to public schools; are you going to do anything about this, or just whine?

[Scoutfish]

Thing is, sign a simple piece of paper, and you do not have to have a lifeguard.

 

But if you choose to hire your own lifeguard, then you have the right to hire whoever you choose, and that's not discrimination, that's free choice.

 

Now, if the city was to say : "NO, we will choose your lifeguard that you hire regardless and in defiance of any of your wishes" That itself would be discriminating against the renter.

 

And since the city is doing it, that would be discrimination.

 

And using the Muslim reference is the key right here.

 

The city may not be allowed to go out and promote a Muslim Women Only Swim fest, but if Muslims decide to rent the pool from the vcity at a standard rental fee and want to provide their own lifeguards, they they have the right to hire only women lifeguards.

 

It's not discriminating against anybody, it is allowing a customer to use their own rental time in their own way they enjoy.

 

Otherwise, why would anybody do it?

 

Why pay money if the city is the one who is going to tell you who, what, why or when it ?

 

Would you rent it for a birthday party if the city said you had to invite 25 people of the city's choice lest you be discrimination against those the city chose?

 

Take away the religous part of it: Suppose Merlyn and a bunch of his friends were having a swim party, event or scuba certification class. They rent the pool, hire a lifeguard they happen to know( which might ber male or female) instead of using a city lifeguard. If the lifeguard is female and the city was going tyo provide a male...isn't that considered discrimination?

 

Or vice versa: If they have 3 male lifeguards, and no females,and the city was going to provide at least 1 female lifeguard, are they discriminating then?

 

Where would it ever stop?

 

What sex, race, or religious background is the person in charge of the facilitiesa? Why not a different person? ARe they discriminating aginst anybody else?

 

What about the changing rooms/showers/bathrooms? Are the segregated by gender? Isn't that discrimination? Or is it just a case of privacy?

 

A private party wants to rent the pool. They want it to be a private affair.

 

That's not discrimination..that's just being private.

[Papadaddy]

Those who know me from before, know that Papamama is an RN, an elementary school nurse. I have observed that ALL of the school nurses in the largest school system in the state are female. Her, reply-"A man will never be hired for these jobs...the parents would never stand for it." Apparently it's ok for a female to assisst little boys with their needs, but a male cannot assist little girls. Everyone knows we're all molesters at heart. That attitude is pervasive in the GSUSA also, from what I've read on this forum. I think the pool situation is simple to solve...groups renting the pool should all follow the same rules. If they want to dictate who can work their "event", then let all participants sign a "hold harmless" agreement and the group can hire their own "staff". As to the BSA...I, too, remember segregated units...heck, we still have "black troops" in the Council...not by design, but that's just how the chips fall in those neighborhoods. Some blacks prefer to segregate themselves, to wit, black churches. If the BSA relaxed their membership rules, would we then have "gay troops", chartered by gay organizations? Could be interesting...

[Eagledad]

>>I got rid of thousands of illegal, discriminatory BSA units chartered to public schools; are you going to do anything about this, or just whine?

[Oak Tree]

The question of whether it would be legal to use only female lifeguards would depend on whether the courts found the gender of the lifeguard to be a "bona fide occupational qualification". Courts have generally found that it is acceptable to allow gender discrimination when it is necessary for the privacy of a third party. It is acceptable to have women do the pat-downs of women at airports, for example.

 

Whether the courts would find the expectation of privacy to be justified here is something I don't know. The law clearly would not allow them to request only middle-eastern lifeguards, or only muslim lifeguards, but there are definitely situations where it is permissible, based on privacy expectations, to discriminate on the basis of gender.

 

Regardless, the question at hand isn't whether the government will force the BSA to stop discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation while at the same time the government does its own discrimination. It's been clearly established that the BSA is allowed to choose its own members and leaders. But people are also free to choose to walk away from the BSA for the same reason.

[Eamonn]

I've read a lot of the discussions that have gone here in this forum.

Maybe I've not read them that closely?

Have to say that I never gave the Scouting alumni a second thought.

I teach a class on suicide prevention and unless they have come up with new numbers? I believe that suicide is not the leading cause of death in teenagers. I have been told that motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for U.S. teens.

 

Like it or not those who are behind pushing what I'd call the Gay Agenda have done a wonderful job for their cause.

Watching Sunday morning on CBS the other Sunday it mentioned the Stonewall riots anniversary on June 27, 1969. Things have changed a lot since 1969, which really isn't that long ago.

While history will and does look back at the major events that affect the Gay Rights Movement. I tend to think that it's what has happened and the way that gays have been seen in the media that have done more to soften the attitudes of non gays. Movie and pop stars are OK with saying that they are gay, watch any reality TV show and you can bet at least one of the guys on the island or in the house is going to be gay.

Older people like myself can argue about the promiscuity as it regards sex and young people but I'm not sure we get what they are seeing and getting.

Most of the young people I talk with don't see being gay or homosexual as being a big deal. While very few say or are willing to say that they are, they seem happy to go with whatever people do in private that doesn't harm others is fine by them.

They just can't see why the BSA wants to make a big deal about this.

 

My religion doesn't condone homosexuality. It is seen as a sin.

I don't know if at some time in the future this will change or not? Sometimes the R/C church can be very slow about things and then one day just do a 180 degree turn. The way things seem now, I can't see the church changing.

Not being gay this is one of those sins I just don't have to worry about. Lord knows I have enough on my plate to deal with as it is!

I wonder how many others have similar feelings?

The number of homosexuals in the USA doesn't seem to be clear. I've read around 2-3% of men, and 2% of women, are homosexual or bisexual. The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force estimates three to eight percent of both sexes. So who's right? I don't know.

Most of us are so busy doing what we are doing that spending time worrying about gay rights is not something that is high on our lists of things that concern us.

I really don't think that if the BSA were to allow avowed homosexuals to serve as leaders that the flood gates would open and that there would be thousands of gays waiting in line to fill out leadership applications.

While maybe some of the homosexual adults who are now serving might feel that they no longer have to hide their sexuality. My gut feeling is that if the gay policy were to be done away with in less than ten years it would be a non-issue.

 

We can argue about homosexuality until the cows come home.

Some of us will see it as just being wrong, while others will take the other side.

I get a little mixed up.

There are some things that I just know are wrong. I can't ever see me murdering anyone. I know that murder is wrong and people who do murder should be punished. For me that's not a hard one.

Things get a little more complicated when it comes to abortion.

My church is 101% against it.

Even when the pre-natal tests which turned out to be wrong. Showed that my son might be born less than normal and I spend three days looking at my options, one of which was terminating the pregnancy, I decided that I couldn't allow an abortion. For me it just wasn't the right thing to do. But I can and do see how and where it might be the right thing for other people.

So while it might be said that I have not gone against the teaching of my religion? I'm not 100% with the teaching's.

Being heterosexual I fail to understand gay or homosexual sex. Two men or two women just don't seem to have what is needed, in my view.

I do understand how two people can have deep feelings for each other and love and care for each other. Maybe this loving and caring does lead to a physical relationship? I'm not the person to ask.

The jury seems to still be out about homosexuality being a choice or not. Seems it depends who is doing the asking.

 

When it comes down to what other organizations are saying and doing about the BSA. It seems to me that they are not looking at or debating gays or homosexuals. They are looking at and seeing an organization that discriminates.

We might not like to hear it but the BSA does discriminate.

Being as the BSA is a private organization it is allowed by law to discriminate.

There is however a cost to being a private organization and that bed is made and we as an organization need to sleep on it, leave or try to change the areas where there is discrimination.

Each of us needs to look at where we stand.

If we really can't tolerate the discrimination we need to leave.

In my book, I see an organization which does have faults, but the good that it can and does do outweighs the faults.

So I'm OK with staying.

Eamonn

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

"Being heterosexual I fail to understand gay or homosexual sex. Two men or two women just don't seem to have what is needed, in my view."

 

Not surprising. I think many of us forget that sex is more than a physical act. The biggest part is emotional. And that's something that shouldn't surprise any of us, since almost everything we do or everything we are is grounded in emotions somewhere. Yet most of us forget the emotional component of everything that we do - and come to believe that everyone must share the same emotions that we do.

 

It can be hard for heterosexuals to understand homosexuals - it's hard to understand the emotions of anyone - even people we have lived with for years. Unless you can put yourself in the place of others, you will always have a hard time having empathy or sympathy or understanding.

 

It may be easier for younger folks these days, who aren't being exposed to the same messages that older folks were exposed to. I have a brother 10 years older than I am - he still rants and raves about "communists". Me? When someone rants about communists, I roll my eyes and wonder who tampered with his cheerios that morning. Because of the times that he grew up in, he seemed more readily influenced into believing that all Muslims were bad because of a few nutjobs back in September of 2011. The times I grew up in? Prepared me to question mass assumptions. The true beneficiaries of the 60's and 70's wasn't the people going to Woodstock or living the lifestyle - it was the children growing up in those times seeing that message of peace, love and civil rights being fought over.

 

I don't understand Nascar. I don't see any attraction in sitting in hot, crowded stands full of people, drinking cheap beer, and watching cars drive around never-ending ovals all day. I just don't have the emotional connection to it.

 

I don't undestand watching football, baseball, soccer, basketball either - again, I have no emotional attachment to it.

 

I don't understand going to church on Sundays and letting someone else tell me what God says. I just don't have an emotional attachment to it.

 

But - I have no problem if other people want to spend their time and money watching or doing these things. Sure, I may not be able to understand it, but I don't have to understand it in order to let people live the life they choose to live.

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Oaqk Tree,

 

 

Since 100% of the lifeguard staffing except for these events are done by males and females, the BFOQ argument holds no water.

 

You would have to be arguing that essentially no one of a particular sex is capable of doing a job for a BFOQ to be established. One area where this is routinely accepted is allowing men to play male roles and females to play female roles in plays, movies and other entertainment, despite the possibility of actors assuming a different gender.

 

 

 

I guess I hijacked my own argument aboput Hispanics being a far more important issues than homosexuals to Scouting!

[CalicoPenn]

On the lifeguard issue: when a private organization rents out a public swimming pool, the private organization can make the rules about who can or can't swim, and who can or can't lifeguard. The public body can say that the organization must use the public body's lifeguards, but the private organization can say they must all be male or female as they have the right of free association. Private organizations are allowed to discriminate - they can even discriminate on public property.

 

What would be discrimination is if the Seattle pools rented to this Islamic group and not rented to the Boy Scouts. As long as all have the right to rent the pools, then there is no discrimination. There's not even anything wrong with a public body putting up fliers for the private organizations event - as long as the public body is not paying for the creation and printing of the flier, and the public body allows other organizations to put up their fliers. If the Cub Scouts want to have a pool party recruiting night and rent the pool and want to put up fliers, they would be allowed - if they aren't, and the Islamic group is, then that would be a violation of federal laws on equal access.

 

Just because a public body posts a private flier, it does not mean the public body endorses the private group or the information in the flier. That doesn't mean the public body can't have rules - they have to provide equal access - if they don't post anyone's private fliers, they don't have to accept yours - then they aren't discriminating. If they only post fliers related to a specific venue - say a swimming pool or an ice skating rink, then it's not likely that an equal access claim will be successful if you come in to post a flier not related to that venue.

 

As for whether it is violating the local discrimination clauses, you'll have to take that up with them. You may believe so, but local governments can interpret what those laws mean for themselves - if they say that the discrimination clause doesn't apply in this case, that's them interpreting their own law - and it would be rare for a judge to overturn that, unless you could prove that the government is applying that interpretation inconsistently.

 

"I guess I hijacked my own argument aboput Hispanics being a far more important issues than homosexuals to Scouting!"

 

Something made me stop and go Hmmmm when I read this. It's widely believed that the Hispanic population is pretty conservative, and less tolerant of homosexuality. You would think that the BSA's policies against homosexual leaders would make the BSA more attractive to the Hispanic community. Yet we're still struggling to bring them in.

 

I'm wondering if Hispanics look at the BSA, notices that it doesn't seem very welcoming to some folks (gays, girls, some religions) and, even if they are less tolerating of gays, wonder if "there but by the grace go I" and are wary of an organization that openly discriminates in any manner.

[ScoutNut]

It is just a local YMCA. This is not at the National level.

 

As a private organization, they, like the BSA, have the right to determine their own membership.

 

I don't agree with their decision, but it is theirs to make.

 

I do not think the Troop will have any trouble finding a new CO.

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

I never worked out how the life guard thing was part of this thread??

I must have missed something along the way.

While the last census did show changes in population, Scouting is very local.

Where I live we don't have hardly any if any Hispanics, so for us it's not a big deal.

There are parts of Pennsylvania where there are large Hispanic communities, around Harrisburg and Lancaster County.

As far as I know there isn't a very active gay community around where I live. So in many ways a lot of what is being discussed doesn't really affect me or the Council where I live.

Not having any local Hispanics does mean that for the average person where I live that very few if anyone gives them a lot of thought.

But things are different when it comes to the Gay issue and Scouting.

Clearly sides have been drawn and people are on one side or the other. There just doesn't seem to be very much middle ground.

Of course I live in a fairly rural area.

There were only three black /African American kids in my son's graduation class, no Hispanics and one Lad who was from Iraq, his Dad is a local doctor.

We are seeing a larger Asian community move into the Pittsburgh area as the city becomes more of a high tech area, with job opportunities that seem to be a good fit.

Pittsburgh like many big cities does have areas that are very poor and mainly African American.

The Greater Pittsburgh Council is doing what it can to bring more of the black youth into Scouting. The big problem seems to be finding black leaders.

With the economy as it is right now spending money trying to attract minorities is a big gamble.

If the census numbers are to be believed? I think many Hispanic families will filter into all parts of Pennsylvania much like the Irish and the Italians have done.

This might not be the case in areas where there is already large Hispanic communities like we find in some parts of California.

I'm a little unsure if we aren't maybe over reacting?

My employer is a little worried about the population shift, so much so that I'm being sent on a course that the PA. State Police is running on Survival Spanish.

Heck! I'm still trying to learn American English!

Ea.

[CalicoPenn]

Awww Eamonn,

 

American English is easy. First you drop all those unneccessary U's after O's (like Color/Colour). Then drop unneccessary I's (Aluminum versus Aluminium - Alcoa spells it Aluminum - they're the world's leading producer of it, I'm good with their spelling), and lastly, know that a boot is something you wear on your feet.

 

The only survival Spanish one truly needs is "Dos Cervezas, por favor"

[vol_scouter]

CalicoPenn said: "I'm wondering if Hispanics look at the BSA, notices that it doesn't seem very welcoming to some folks (gays, girls, some religions) and, even if they are less tolerating of gays, wonder if "there but by the grace go I" and are wary of an organization that openly discriminates in any manner. "

 

If that is correct, then the BSA should forget recruiting the hispanic community because they will not join because we don't accept homosexuals now and if they follow the Bible, they will not join in the future if the BSA allows homosexuals. I think that is just nonsense. The hispanic community seems to want to preserve all of its' culture and is not very interested in adopting the American culture. That is why Scientific American correctly pointed out that the illegal aliens are not immigrants but rather migrants. For the future of the country, it is important to teach American values and history which is a great place for Scouting. So in my opinion Scouting must win the trust of the community that we are here to broaden their children's understanding and not to take them away from their culture. Not an easy task.

[BadenP]

 

I think vol scouter's last post says loads about how misguided the National BSA office is about hispanic scouting. The BSA still can't seem to figure out why they are losing the Anglo community from boy scouts as the numbers of boys and troops continue downward. Yet they think the majority of Hispanic youth will come flocking to the organization and why, not because of the colorful uniforms, not because they love camping, even our CSE hates that, and not because of advancement or citizenship or learning leadership skills. The truth is that Hispanics want to retain their cultures and pass those traditions down to their youth, so unless the BSA plans to incorporate those same cultural traditions into the program they will never get the parents to support it or the kids to join it. The best they can hope for is to attract hispanic adults and youth who are already totally acculturated into American culture.

[SSScout]

Hispanic Scouts:

Many parents might want children to be Scouts, but:

- Unease about military type uniforms (look at troubles back in home countries).

- In the home nations, usually Scouting is seen as an elitist organization, not for the regular people. The idea of Scouts being for any boy is a new idea.

- Cost of uniforms, camp gear, summer camp (away from home? at such an early age?) can be a hurdle. Even if you try to compare it to futbol equiping, it is expensive , when considered all at once. Same here for nort americanos.

- Some parents of my acquaintence can not fill out Scout forms because (hint) they do not have a SSN. They move when things look uneasy to them. Maybe N&I folks too close? Happened to one Troop I helped along for awhile, chartered to a Iglesia. The Troop and Cub Pack had a total of 12 boys, and 3 adults registered. Half those boys were not around after 8 months. Gone.

- The Boys liked the idea of Scouting, I partnered them with an established Troop. The parents were mostly positive. Took the YPtraining, in spanish, but again, most could not register as a Scout volunteer.

- They were eager for me to be their SM, but I could not be their permanent SM. Worked for three months with one good man, but he moved with his family to Cleveland for employment.

- Their loyalty is divided between the US of A and their former homes. The Iglesia had a dozen flags on the walls of their social hall, but not until I brought in a US flag was that represented. Taught the boys US flag courtesy, all new to them.

 

Scouting is, after all, an acquired taste.