Sins of divorce

[Eagledad]

As a SM and soccer coach, I witnessed many boys go through the struggles of divorce. Except for purposeful physical and mental abuse, I've not witnessed anything that pulled a boy down more than the stress of a family tearing itself a part. It still hurts to look back on it.

 

I am a firm believer that the bible is a moral instruction manual for how adults should behave around our youth. When they don't, the youth suffer forever. We live in a time where adults, even religious ones, seem to pick and choose a morality that is convenient to their lifestyles and choices. I know there are some who believe that our present culture is more self-serving than ever before. Others disagree, but presently we have the highest divorce rate ever before and that doesn't include families where the parents never got married in the first place.

 

Sin in of itself is a self serving action and the statistics of divorce seem to support the theory that we are becoming a more me me culture. This article gives us just a hint of our country's future. I must confess that I'm loosing hope for the children of our future and wonder how we can change direction. I believe Scouting is one of those programs that does teach youth to serve others, but the organization takes a lot of hits for it's values approach.

 

It is interesting article to me because the research group used a measurable element of math to help follow trends.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20110602/hl_hsn/divorcecanhurtkidsmathscoresfriendships

 

Here is the first prargraph:

 

>>THURSDAY, June 2 (HealthDay News) -- Young children of divorce are not only more likely to suffer from anxiety, loneliness, low self-esteem and sadness, they experience long-lasting setbacks in interpersonal skills and math test scores, new research suggests.

[CCbytrickery]

Eagledad,

 

Would it have been less of a sin to stay with my exhusband, who verbally and physically abused me and my daughter, than to divorce him?

 

Would she have been better served by watching him kick me repeatedly, because I didn't have his dinner ready when he came home, no matter what time it was?

 

You want to use the bible as a moral instruction manual? You may want to read Exodus 21:15-17; or Deuteronomy 22:23-24 or 22:13-21.

 

It's not on you to determine my sin. That's between me and my God.

[vol_scouter]

Eagledad,

 

I couldn't agree more having observed the same things.

 

CCbytrickery,

 

Clearly, you did the right thing and all of us are judged individually so that is not an issue. Fortunately, most women are not abused. Most marriages break up over money. However, from 25 years making rounds in the hospital and in my office, the story that I have most frequently heard is that one or both of the partners are simply unhappy. Even great marriages have periods where the happiness wanes. It is not a good reason to divorce. When children are involved, it is selfish to dissolve a marriage simply because one is no longer in the infatuation phase.

[skeptic]

Interesting the article says he studied kids in kindergarten in 2008 and followed them through fifth grade. His math does not add up, as they would only be in 3rd grade this year.

 

Whatever, we cannot deny that divorce generally has a negative effect on kids, though some are worse than others. It helps a lot if the parents rise above most of the pettiness, and try to not disrupt the kids life too much. If they can keep them in one school, work to common goals for the children, and be civil to each other they will have far less issues with them.

 

This article is very cursory, and appears to only discuss young children. The affects on older preteen and teens is possibly even more critical, due to the other physical things with which they are dealing as well.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

[jtswestark]

Really guys? Is it that easy to sit up on high and tell the rest of the masses to suck it up? Maybe if better guidance was given to kids before they married. Maybe if the states required some of the parent education classes before they issue a marriage certificate that they require before issuing a divorce. Maybe a whole lot of things that apparently you just dont get. I didnt either before I realized it was my best option to save my mental and physical health. That's the tradeoff I made with sin? Its so easy to say how much life was better in the good old days of when things were kept behind close doors. Its just so easy for us to say that, isnt it.

[Scoutfish]

Man...I agree and disagree .

 

My wife and I have been married for over 16 years now. We dated for a little over 4 years before we got married. WE planned/talked about our wedding for about a year. Of course, we bought a house 4 months before we got married and moved in together too, but had already set wedding plans in motion.

 

Almost every one of our married couple friends we grew up with or hung out with as married couples

are divorced.

 

One couple got married because she got pregnant in high school. He did love her to death, but was too controling. She wanted to have all the single person fun she missed out on and started having a hard time being faithful. Yes I do know as she tried to work on me too.

 

Another couple got divorced because he expected his wife to stay at home all day as a mom while he worked, but then expected her to take care of everything all night too because "I worked all day and I am off now." He wanted all the perks of marrage but the freedomn and responcibility of being single.

 

Another couple decided to get married a month after dating...we all knew that one was doomed to start with: Al he talked about was how hot she was and good in bed. All she talked about was how much money he spent on her and how handsome he was. Never heard the word "love" from the lips either of them.

 

I see to many people act too fast too soon and think withn their bodies instead of their heads.

 

I see people seperate after the first stupid minor arguement. People no longer understand compromise, sacrifice, working through things, or that concept of " Marrage is a 50/50 partnership that takes 100% effort from both couples."

 

Divorce is too easy and simple to do. No fault divorce , people who see that it is easier to divorce than to think first or actually commit to something.

 

 

But on the other side of the spectrum. I do see women who no longer suffer in silence or hide in shame in abusive marrages. I see women whio will not live a life of beaing beaten in silence just avoid embarassing their families ( I still don't get that one anyways). I see people who realize that the spark is gone, that they have changed to a point they just cannot get along and that by sticking together, things would actually be worse for everybody involved ...including the kids.

 

And that's the worst part of it...the kids. They somehow think it's their fdault or that they caused it. Then once divorse hapens, each parent pretty much smears, degrades and slanders the other parent right in front of the kid....so the kid feels like he is betraying both parents by still loving and talking to the other one.

 

I told my wife BEFORE we had my son, that "IF" anything ever happens and for some reason we get divorced, I do not plan on ever blasting her in front of or within earshot of my son. Maybe we do have a falling out, but that is not my son's fault or problem. He does not need to hear me talk trash about his mom nor does he need to hear his mom do the same.

 

And most importantly, I will be sure to explain to him it is no way his fault nor could he do anything to prevent it.

 

But you know...It doesn't look like I will ever have to. Is my marrage perfect?

Not hardly, But what is?

[ScoutLass]

I've never been divorced, don't plan to, and am not a child of divorce, but I also don't have the ego to paint all divorce with the same broad brush. I've seen children hurt by divorce and I've seen damage caused when parents who shouldn't stay married do. I've heard the stories from women of my grandmother's generation, and the marriages they stuck with because that's just what you did back then. Abuse, cheating, disrespect -- you stuck it out.

 

Fortunately, I don't have good values or morals because of a fear of being judged when I die. I have them because I want to make the best impression on this world while I am alive. We need to quit packaging morality as a Christian attribute and instead just package it as the right thing to do, irregardless of religion. You can be moral without being a Christian, or even subscribing to religion at all.

 

My opinion is divorce is up mainly because kids are wrapped in bubble wrap. There is no longer an opportunity for a child to learn basic social problem solving and cooperation skills on the playground, only teachers and adults can solve even the smallest disagreement. This results in adults who never learned to compromise or talk out an issue as children. If you don't know what to do, of course it's just easier to quit.

 

(This message has been edited by scoutlass)

[SeattlePioneer]

We still have marriage for life without the possibility of divorce. As an added attraction, no one has to say "I do" in a formal ceremony to wind up married to someone.

 

Child custody and child support laws are the new marriage.

[Beavah]

Yah, have to agree with Eagledad. It's hard to identify anything worse for kids than divorce. Loss of a parent to accident or illness is hard, but kids get through it. Divorce has awful effects.

 

Now, where in da chain is the problem? Darned if I know. Is it folks who don't understand what marriage is to begin with? Yah, see that. Is it folks who don't stick it out through the tough times? Yah, see that a lot. What's odd to me is that folks are gettin' married later and doin' worse at it. Yeh would think we'd be more mature.

 

Generally speakin' all forms of "sin" have consequences, eh? They have consequences for the person makin' the bad choice, and in turn have consequences for all the other folks around 'em, and in turn for the folks around them, all the way out to consequences for da nation and world. The bible tells us "only God can forgive sins" largely because only God can see the true depth and breadth of damage our poor choices do to all of creation.

 

I'm not much of one for wailin' about it, though. I think as Christians yeh answer this stuff by being the evangelical counter-example, eh? Where folks are short on commitment, yeh don't judge 'em. Yeh step up and show extraordinary love and commitment. Where folks are short on self-restraint, yeh try to do your best to be an example of great restraint. Judging others is a failing of Kindness that can be a worse sin, eh? Our job is to struggle with our own weaknesses, remove da logs from our own eyes, so that we can be the example and guide and friend to others that they need.

 

Beavah

 

[qwazse]

Well, regardless of religion, most folks in our country really worship self more than God. Since the scripture is only something we go to when death is imminent, "burying" self becomes the greater sin.

 

You can tell this by CCb's mockery of the harsh rules in Dueteronomy. We would never consider an engaged person's promiscuity to be an act of treason. Why shouldn't she be free to cater to herself? In fact, it is the American objective to make sure the entire world lives as selfishly as possible. (This was a subplot of Outsource.) Granted, I'm in no position to throw stones, so I don't and I try to keep others from gathering rocks, but I am obligated to understand that the stones were put there for a reason.

 

So yeah, divorce hurts kids. So does lust in general. So does greed. So does cursing. So does doing anything to get your own way without regard to the folks in your community. In fact the list is so long it's a wonder that our kids have a selfless bone in their body. So when you see a youth who is willing to do even one selfless act, remember that you're looking at a miracle.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

[Eamonn]

A lot of people were of the opinion when I got married that it would never last.

I was 26, living at home and very much a free spirit.

Not sure how long never last is for?

But 28 years later we are still both working and doing our best to get along.

Over time we have learned where the soft spots are.

We both know how if we want to cause hurt and harm to each other. We don't because there is no joy to be gotten or had from harming or hurting.

I'm far too lazy to want to fight or argue.

The biggest fight we ever had was over two fried eggs!

That was when we were first married and HWMBO hasn't cooked me an egg since. -I'm not mad about eggs anyway!

Mu brother who is four years older than I am was married at twenty-one.

He was already a very wealthy fellow, thanks to being a great salesperson who was fortunate to start a business that was in the right place at the right time.

He married a truly beautiful woman a few years older than he was. She came from a very wealthy English family, had all the trappings of wealth. Finishing school in Switzerland, fluent in French and all that.

Despite his money, cars, house in a wonderful area he was still a working class Irish Catholic kid who used his wealth to shout at the world "Hey Look At Me! - I'm Doing Great."

They were married by the Bishop of Winchester at Winchester Cathedral. They never really understood each other and never took the time to try and learn.

After a few years their marriage fell apart.

My brother moved in with us. -Great fun, three of us all in a one bedroom apartment (Flat.)

I kinda think both would have been happy to call it a day and move on but the lawyers got a hold of it and the smell of money. Things went from bad to worse.

Talking with my brother he said the thing that had really got to him was the shame.

The shame of having been the first person ever in our family to ever go through or get a divorce.

While I didn't think of it at the time. Sure he was the first to get a divorce. But hidden away in that place where families keep stuff that they never share was my Dad's brother my Uncle Johnny.

Johnny and his wife never got along. So he went to work in England leaving her and his son in Ireland. He sent money to support them, but they never lived together. Being Irish Catholics divorce just wasn't an option.

I met my cousin for the first time last summer when I was in Ireland. He knew very little about his Dad or the rest of the family. He resented the fact that he'd been left and cut off from the family. I think in many ways that had his parents been able to divorce and start again that maybe things might have been better for everyone.

It is sad to watch parents of Scouts split and divorce. Very often it seems that the parents are keeping score of who can hurt or cause the most harm to the other. The kids get caught up in all of this. Mum tells them that Dad is a no good so and so and Dad says much the same thing about Mum.

It must be so very hard to see a person that has been there, has loved and taken great care of you leave.

The kid has to feel that the trust he had has been misplaced.

While I do think that divorce isn't a bad thing. I sometimes wish that I could get both parents and bang their heads together. What they end up doing to the kids and the harm they cause, much of which could be avoided if they would remember that even if they can't get along as man and wife, they are still the Mum and Dad to a child that knows nothing but love for both of them.

For me going out of your way to harm or hurt someone is a very big sin.

Eamonn

[Papadaddy]

Divorce is hard even on the adult children. My son's inlaws announced they were splitting up after 30 years of marriage (apparently a one-sided decision - he just "wants his freedom). My only problem was that their timing sucked, announcing it one month before the birth of my first grandchild, which turned what should have been the happiest time of my son and DIL's life into a pall of sadness and depression, and then anger. Now, my son's MIL, who was going to provide daycare starting this month, has to move out, find an apartment and a full time job. Not sure about daycare, but I'll probably be paying for it, since both of us still work. Family gatherings are now strained and awkward, with one of them attending, but not both. One of their adult kids has disowned them both, cutting off contact with those grandchildren. The baptism celebration this Sunday with great-grandparents coming from out of town should be real interesting. I can't wait. The selfishness of such an act was astounding to me.

 

That being said, an abused spouse needs to get out, and file charges. Staying together "for the kids' sake" does no one any favors.

[pchadbo]

"And that's the worst part of it...the kids. They somehow think it's their fdault or that they caused it. Then once divorse hapens, each parent pretty much smears, degrades and slanders the other parent right in front of the kid....so the kid feels like he is betraying both parents by still loving and talking to the other one"

 

Which is why the first ground rule when my ex told me "I am done" (as a side note if any one has insight on that comment it would be greatly appeciated)was that the kids were (and still are) the focus of our continued relationship. We primarily communicate only about the kids but we are polite, and are quite often in the same room and frequently work and cooperate for child care and activities.

 

I admit that this was not the best option but it was the best option given that the ex refused to go to a couselor or even talk about why she decided we needed a divorce.

 

 

[shortridge]

Wow, the pile of holier-than-thou is getting close to knee-deep around here.

 

I got married in 2002, had a wonderful daughter in 2004, separated in 2009 and divorced in 2010. My ex-wife and I get along better now than we did when we were married. We're co-parenting our daughter - she spends the same amount of time being loved, educated and raised by both her parents.

 

The difference is that the fighting is over, the shouting has been silenced and the arguments have ended. We are respectful of each other in a way that we weren't when we were married. We now get along, chat, laugh and share stories when we bump into each other. That's a far better model for our daughter than two parents who resent each other and spend all their energy on emotional warfare. I had gotten to the point where I had very little left to give my daughter - I was too drained by the constant conflict. It was not a good life for anyone - it was barely a mediocre life.

 

When we were in couples' counseling, the therapist emphasized repeatedly to us that divorce didn't end our relationship. It just created a new one. We were still, and will always be, parents to a great daughter who is thriving. It's a business relationship of sorts, she said - you have to get along for her sake. That simply wasn't possible when we were together.

 

Truth, I never thought I would get divorced. My parents split when I was in college, and dealing with the aftermath of that was horrific. But my ex-wife and I were just not made for each other. I can't say it was a mistake; my daughter is amazing, and teaches me new things every day about life, learning and love. I wouldn't trade having her for anything. But life is much, much better now, for all of us.

 

Those of you who would paint with such a broad brush might want to try using a slightly smaller diameter one before you start throwing around the word "sin."

[NJCubScouter]

skeptic, it's even worse than that. If the children being studied "entered kindergarten in 2008" as the article says, and assuming these are kids with regular school years, they would be finishing SECOND grade right around now. To be finishing fifth grade now they would have started kindergarten in 2005. So something is incorrect somewhere. It may be that the newspaper article is incorrect, but then one wonders what else they got wrong.

 

On the subject at hand, there is no doubt that divorce is difficult for children. Some people, by making their breakup as acrimonious as possible, make it even tougher on their children than it needs to be. But growing up with parents who are constantly at war with each other is no good either. Some divorces need to happen. Some divorces that happen should not happen. But this study does not seem to take any of that into account. All it tells us is that, all other things being equal, kids whose parents are divorced, in general, have more problems than kids whose parents are together. I already knew that. It does not tell us about the "morality" of getting divorced, or staying together, in any particular case.