UK: Scouts get prepared for more gay recruits

[Eagledad]

Well I dont agree that Americans are pompus and smug toward other cultures in other countries. I certainly dont agree with Moosetracker that we dont look at others to improve. Moose is focused on Gay Scouts and seems to suggest that including gays would improve the program. He doesnt suggest where it would improve but he does say right out that if we would just compare, we would change because of the advantages. Oh really moose, you only need to look at the performance of the other scouting organizations in North America that made the changed to see the drop in numbers to wonder why any reasonable person would want to do that to the BSA.

 

My family travels abroad quite a bit, and although I personally havent been to Europe yet, what I have seen of Americans in other countries is that they generally behave in the countries the way they behave at home. Easterners have a different way about them than Westerners. Not good or bad, just different. Even abroad, I can kind of identify what part of the US that person lives, but in general Americans are polite and humble in other counties.

 

There are certainly jerks from the US that travel. But let me just say that its the same with other countries. My experiences abroad are that Americans in general are much more approachable by reputation than citizens of some other countries. There are many countries where its normal to treat pworkers in the service industry (waiters, maids, store clerks) as lower class people. Americans in general dont do that. Americans actually tend to get pushed around a little because of their humble ways. We are used to a lot of space and like that space even in crowds. Folks from more populated countries are used to body to body contact in crowds and almost see our space as an invitation to squeeze in. This many times invites people to move closer to the head the lines by just simply jumping in line. People from other countries dont hesitate to ask them to move back, but except for Americans from the East Coast, most Americans will just let it happen because they dont want confrontation. So if anything, Americans are taken advantage because of our kind nature. I see this a lot at airports while checking luggage.

 

I used to work a lot with folks from Great Britton in my industry and I didnt have a lot of respect for the younger English for a long while because I worked with so many of them who were pompus jerks that didnt mind putting Americans in their place while they were guest in America. I have since worked with enough Brits to learn that pompus jerks are not the norm, and Ive come to really enjoy their humor. That being said, because my earlier experiences, Im probably the only American that finds the English accent grading. Kind of like how the English feel about the French.

 

Moosetracker has a personal axe to grind that is political in nature, I get that. But he is totally wrong about singling out American the way he does. Ive learned through my travels that the people of each region of the world have their own ways, good and bad. I think everyone in every Country should be proud and defensive of their country. Maybe we should be more open minded as well, but that IS NOT just and American trait. Its almost everyone. Personally I enjoy listening to someone brag about their country. You can learn a lot from that. And in general if you get further in discussion, they are also open to the problems of the country.

 

Im saddened that most of the American bashing that goes on here are by our own Americans, but I know they dont know what they are talking about. The one thing that just about every person in the world identifies with the US is the Stature of Liberty because she represents freedom. Few other countries have that generalized vision from the rest of the world. We should value that.

 

Barry

 

[moosetracker]

Eagledad -- I am laughing here for how out of context & twisted that interpretation was!

 

If you look at my posts my attitude is certainly not "a personal axe to grind that is political in nature" I am not at the head of a protest March down to Texas to establish change..

 

I am someone who is secure in the fact that if change happened, it will simply, work out with a few alterations.. Alterations that I got reamed for as treating gays unfairly, until I explained that in my view I am doing everything to treat everyone equally.. Some may still believe that putting two guys in a tent when one or both are homosexuals is just fine, but I think I settled for most the fact that although I veiw things differently, it is not because I see homosexuals as 2nd class, or with a disease that will rub off, or that homosexuality is the same as a pedophile..

 

The BSA policy is right now a "Don't ask, Don't tell" For adults. And "Youth are not able to figure out their sexual orientation". So a change to the program is just allow for the youth, those homosexuals that are in our program feel more comfortable, and those that leave the program when they feel at odds with the viewpoint on homosexuality, to be comfortable enough to stay.. And if Adult homosexuals were allowed in.. Well it just means some other great Adult leaders would be added, because they would be people with a common interest in the program.. It does not matter to me that when we go our seprate ways, the partner they go home with may be same sex, because it's none of my buisness, and the guy/gal can still start a great fire, and cook a mean batch of chili..

 

No political agenda, just a healthy sense of "Well why not?"

 

 

As for the pompous & smug remark was in no way a remark of how we treat others.. And isn't even in relationship to gays.. The gay issue was over with, and the debate was about if we Americans look at other countries to compare our program, and if other programs may have ideas that would be benificial.. My viewpoint is in line with Lisabob & Eamonn

 

 

As for comparison to others - this is just not a very American thing to do. We have a tendency to assume that our way is the best way, without examining the evidence or considering alternate interpretations or measures.

 

After this is turned to how we Americans act within foreign countries..

[vol_scouter]

moose,

 

Eagledad is correct. If the discussion is over, then must assume that the only reasonable conclusion is that the BSA standards are the best for youth in the USA. It has not improved scouting in other places. Organizations that have accepted homosexuals have not seen an increase in scouts. So it makes no sense to accommodate 1.9% of the population when many would remove their youth from the program if the stance changed. So we agree, the issue was settled that the BSA is correct.

 

By the way, pedophiles have sex with prepubertal youth ONLY. Homosexuals have intimate same sex relationships with post-pubertal youth (heterosexuals can have same sex encounters for power or pecking order) - not pedophiles.

[Scoutfish]

I myself, did not read in any polace where Moose said or implied that we need to change our rules to meet the UK's rules.

 

Nowhere did she say that our rules were inferior. She did not say BSA should change their rules or model them to match any other country's rules.

 

What I got out of it was this: ( in no particular order or importance)

 

1) Another country ( in tis case, the UK) realizes that being gay isn't something you catch like a common cold. It isn't spread by touch or breathing. Never said she is for, or against, or wetrher it is right or wrong. Just that it's not a disease or contageon.

 

2) People in MANY countries, not just us or them, tend to think we are superior and others are so inferior, but we think it without actually knowing why or how it came to be. Truth is, that IS arrogant thinking. WE think we are absolutely perfect, and all other countries are just flat out wrong,m backwards or mislead . But our reason for thinking so is pretty much because they are doing it differently than us. Not because it doesn't work as well or that there is flawed logic...but just because it is different than the way we do it.

 

3) She never said we look at other countries to improve, but said all people SHOULD look outside themselvse and see what is going on. By looking around, you might see a better way of doing something.

 

You want proof? Look at electronics and car companies. Everybody is looking st what the competitions latest bell or whistle is. Then you try tio improve on that. You look at what doesn't work, make a note of it, look at what does work, make notes on that too. Then you try to incorporate the good stuff while avoiding the bad stuff.

 

You do this in order to have the best product.

 

Another example? America itself. Yep, we are a country made up of people and all kinds of ideas from a bunch of other countries. Pretty much everything we do was at one time, influenced by something that may have evolced due to the influeence of another countries traditions or way of doing things.

 

You celebrate Christmas? America didn't invent the observation, or the celebration, didn't invent the Christmas tree, or anything along those lines.

 

We cook hotdogs and shoot fireworks on the 4th of July. We didn't invent hotdogs, we didn't invent fireworks or even the idea of celebrating with fireworks. 4th of July was all about leaving another countries way of living ( in a nutshell, I mean)

 

Our founders came up with the bill of rights and the Constitution. But it wasn't like they spontaneously came of with every single thought all alone. Alot of it was specifically to prevent what was law in other countries.

 

 

You ever hear of tunnel vision? It's when you are so focused on something, or just oblivious of any outside line of thought. Determination and having a vision is awesome, Tunnel vision is bad.

 

4) Everything I have seen Moose write was directed towards equal and fair treatment for all. If it's okay for one, then do it for all. If it's not okay for this group, why expect that group to be okay with it.

 

But I have not see Moose say BSA should, ought to, needs to or should have to adopt, change, relax, or rewrite any rules due to the UK, or gay scouts.

 

 

"If the discussion is over, then must assume that the only reasonable conclusion is that the BSA standards are the best for youth in the USA."

 

No, not really. You can also assume that the reasonable conclusion is that the rules we have within BSA are the rules we have. We can accept them, we can follow them, and we can abide by them, but that does not mean we absolutely think they are the best or without flaw. WE may see the need to change this, dreop that, add something else. We might see a needs to clarify or tweek another rule.

 

If we really thought that, about half of all forums would have to be dropped. No more argueing why BSA should do this or that. No more wishing for uniforms made elsewhere, no more criticizing this procedure or that rule, No more lamenting anything to due with WB21 vs WB. Not another peep about patrols, process for Eagle rank or anything that BSA allows with LDS units ....and last but not least, any thought or ideas about local options would be moot!

 

Everything Moose said was said in an open and objectively observant way.

 

And if we and all people did that, things would really be beter all around. That's how we learn, become better, faster and more efficiant. WE start out one way, and learn not only through experience and failure, but throug observation and watching others - wether our next door neighbor, the next town over,the next state over or the next country over.

 

Afterall, if they are BSA rules, we have to accept them as the best for youth in the USA

[moosetracker]

Playing what if, and how you would personally feel if the situation changed.. Doesn't have anything to do with what is..

 

BSA makes alot of decisions, that some group agree with them, some don't and everything is discuss on this board..

 

The new backwoods rule that requires you to be within certain weight limits if you go 30 minutes from a access road.

 

The rule that a patrol can still go on day events without adult supervision, but can no longer go on overnights without 2 deep leadership.

 

Soccer Scouting..

 

etc. etc..

 

So this was an open discussion about BSA acknowledging the gay youth scouts as knowing their mind, and being more accepting of homosexuals.. It will probably be brought up again 3 or 4 months down the road.. I will personally still remain open & accepting regardless of what BSA stance is..

 

You guys have no problem with Old_OX_Eagle83, LisaBob or Scoutfish who all 3 are in the BSA and have no problem with homosexuals in scouting..

 

If you don't feel the need to discuss & debate BSA topics, why be on the forum.. Just follow the BSA rules without any individual thoughts.

 

By the way, I know the difference between a homosexual and a pedophile, it was others accusing me that my view on how to work with openly gay scouts might be because I had some ridiculous views about them.

[Eagledad]

>>But I have not see Moose say BSA should, ought to, needs to or should have to adopt, change, relax, or rewrite any rules due to the UK, or gay scouts.>We are pompoue & smug.. In some cases we have our rights, in others we are not in the position to feel superior, and our attitude is causing big problems.

 

You should always look at what others are doing to figure out ways to improve. You may not like 80% or feel it will not work in our situation, but then the 20% is worth taking a closer look at..

 

Improvement doesn't come by looking within, it is from looking at what others do, or welcoming diverse individuals into your group ones with different ideas who may shake you up a bit.

[moosetracker]

Thank's for the support Scoutfish - I crossed posted last night, and missed your post. I didn't see it until EagleDad made reference to it, and I was wondering where he got the reference from.. Funny, some ideas we even paralled each other on.

 

EagleDad - if you dislike the term pompous & smug, then I am fine to adopt Scoutfish's terms of arrogent & with tunnel vision. And I was not stating pompous & smug about the narrow relm of the rule BSA has for gay scouts, the topic at the time had moved past that issue and had evolved into a discussion on America looking outside it's own boundries to learn from other countries by comparing and contrasting to find bright ideas from other people.. Ideas that could work here.. Scoutfish nailed it.

 

But EagleDad, this comment

 

Second, Moose suggest we have NOT yet looked with in because he hasn't seen a change in heart of program. Yet, any rational person could see that the kind of changes he is suggesting have not been successful in other scouting organizations. And what are the big problems? I saw his words mainly a bashing Americans for thinking different from him.

 

 

First the heart of the BSA program is not our policy to bar homosexuals.. At least I hope not, otherwise it would be time to find a new organization. I thought the heart of our program was to help young men (and women in Venturing & Explorers) grow into self-confident young adults with good morals, understanding of civic duty, good leadership skills, Intrest in outdoor adventure, and respect for the differences and diversity of other individuals & groups (except for 2 specific groups ahemm..)

 

Also changes don't normally come from within, they come from not having tunnel vision looking at what others are doing and/or welcoming new people into your group who have fresh ideas from other organizations, companys, and cultures and listening to therm rather then shutting them up and trying to create them into a carbon copy of yourself.

 

Third I am not bashing Americans for thinking different them me.. If this statement is in regards to BSA's policy on homosexuals as stated the comment was not directed at that. For another thing day by day, generation by generation, more Americans think like I do on this policy.. If the comment was made as a generalization about all Americans about how we generally think about looking to other countries for ideas.. then first off I am an American, so I did not exclude myself from that comment.. I consider myself as pompous & smug as the rest of my fellow Americans.. second I don't disagree with every American on every topic on the face of the planet.. If I did I should go be a hermit living in a cave away from everyone else in society..

 

But aside from that.. Whenever you visit in NH, look me up, I will set you a place at our dinner table.

 

Commented to add.. By the way I am a she, not a he! (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[FScouter]

Some of you folks would do well to take some boys camping.

[moosetracker]

Alas, Cannot.. In-laws are coming for the weekend..

[Scoutfish]

I'd love to go camping, but it's to much like broil right now!

 

Nah, I can take the heat, but the humidity gives me pause. Actually, it's only at bed time that the humidsity really bugs me.

 

Other than that, I'm ready to go!

 

[TAHAWK]

Misc. ramblings.

 

BSA policy on sex and religion are certainly interesting subjects for discussion. As to religion, I learned this many years ago when my tent-mate explained why he, a Buddhist, didn't join in prayers: "No one to pray to." Yet we have had Buddhist troops since the 1920's and there is a BSA-recognized religious award for Buddhist Scouts - who recognize no creator deity.

 

Is there an implicit belief that the European view is superior to the African and Middle Eastern view, as well as the BSA view? Of course there is. Silly question.

 

BSA is not the largest Scout organization in terms of membership, or even the largest youth organization in the U.S. The largest Scout organization is that of Indonesia.

 

We had a Chinese exchange student live with us for two weeks some twenty years ago. He wanted to cook us a proper Chinese meal, but all of our knives were "wrong" because they were beveled on both sides instead of one side (like a chisel). "Everyone" know bevel on one side was only proper way. Almost everything about the U.S. was wrong to some extent. He wanted to live in the U.S. He lives in the U.S. now. Wonder where he gets his knives.

 

I never met my uncle Robert. I was only two when he was buried in France. My Mom said he was quiet and polite. He is buried pretty close to the burial site for a great uncle, Arthur, killed in France in 1918. Uncle William was a merchant seaman on a ship torpedoed on a convoy to the U.K. before we formally entered WWII. He's down there somewhere. Not sure if any of them thought too well of things American, but they are just as dead. I think of them when the labels start appearing.

 

My son spent two weeks in Europe through his high school French class - Italy, France and Germany. He had a great time. Thought it was crowded and the French spoke a tad too fast for him to understand. Couldn't understand German at all but liked Germans and Germany.

 

My son married a Japanese girl. She had come to the U.S. for undergrad and grad school and stayed because, as a female, her professional prospects were much better in the U.S.

 

We go to a Canadian camporee every other year. They have incredible security - mainly because it's Scouts Canada. There have been "complete dates" every time we have gone -- two couples caught last time. Not air. Not water. Hard wired. "Like rabbits" I was told - several times. (Our Scouts seem divided [largely by age] into two reactions to Scouts Canada: "Girls! Yuck!" and "Girls! Wow!!" I worry about the ones that just stare off into space. "Hi guys!!")

 

Many people came here because they did not like how things were done where they came from. On my Dad's side, they came in chains, being on the wrong side in the "42." On my Mom's side, they came for religious freedom, not being C of E. Being told we do things differently from where those people fled is not, ipso facto, a bad thing to many, if not most. Our current legislative majority, for example, cannot fire our highest court. We like it that way, as the UK likes it their way. (Just don't get caught in the UK with any knife unless you can tell the nice policeman why you have a knife. Burden is on you. And don't go to Cleveland, Ohio and "possess in a public place" any "knife" with "a blade 2.5" or longer unless it is necessary for your occupation. Illegal. Makes it tough to eat dinner. Is that an occupation? ^___^)

 

BSA is a corporation with no published telephone number, mailing address, or email address. One wonders what is discussed in the puzzle palace, by whom, and with what objectives beyond fund-raising.

[Eamonn]

"Im probably the only American that finds the English accent grading. "

OK Barry you have my permission to read my posts with an American accent.

 

It's kinda strange the need to pick on others.

At one time in England it was the Americans.

Then the English took to holidaying in Spain, but wanted everything there to be like it was in England (Fish 'n" Chips and warm beer!)

Then the Japanese started to travel. I can't remember what it was we picked on them for? But maybe it was just because they were different?

Last I heard the Germans were the guys being accused of behaving badly.

I think maybe as other countries seem to do well, we get to meet the people who come from wherever that place is and it takes us a while to get to know them and understand them.

I have just about crossed the line where I have spent more time living here in the good old US of A then I did in England.

I love America, I love Americans (Yes even HWMBO and my son, both are Yanks!)

The people here in the USA have shown me great kindness and great understanding.

I admire the work ethic that we have here.

I have never felt the class pressure, that was around in the UK when I was growing up.

I can never thank America and the Americans for all that they have done for me and all that America has given me.

All too often we hear about the immigrant arriving here in the USA with very little money. In my case that's almost true.

When we decided to move here, we sold just about everything We had a fair amount of money. But the week we were to move the Pound took a nose dive. The exchange rate was $1.33 to the pound. I got mad and left most of the money in an account in the Bank of Ireland, leaving us with very little.

That money has never made it across the pond. (Thankfully it is no longer in the Bank of Ireland!) So while I don't see myself as being wealthy, I do see myself as being comfortable and not wanting.

I'm more than happy to stand up and cheer for the USA and the peoples who live here.

I will gladly say God Bless the USA.

Eamonn.

[Mr. Boyce]

re: original post.

 

Sad story, truly sad, sexualizing youth in such a fashion. And again, the propaganda pressure to redefine homosexuality away from being a harmful, pedophile-friendly psychological disorder.

[Cambridgeskip]

Mr Boyce - I am quite shocked that anyone would seek to make any link between homosexuality and peadophiles. To do is a load of ignorant, prejudiced, nonsense.

[gregharewood]

Mr Boyce, you are being ignorant. That's not meant as a personal attack. But you are wilfully ignoring the statistical evidence and other academic and scientific opinion, some of which has been mentioned in this discussion. You also talk about redefining homosexuality - you are even managing to misunderstand the word. Homo means same in Latin - i.e. same sex. There is not, nor has there ever been in the definition any implication of paedophilia, nor any sense of 'perversion'. I suspect you are associating the two simply because you consider them both to be immoral or different to what 'people like you' do.

 

This may all seem normal to you, and you may feel comfortable saying these things because they are opinions common among people you spend time with, in your local community, even your faith community or otherwise. But they have no basis in scientific fact, and come across as prejudice and hate to the many good people who are homosexual. I find it very uncomfortable to think of fellow Scouts as harbouring such prejudice towards fellow Scouts.