Can you still be a Christian if

[Scoutfish]

I guess it comes to this:

 

Any of us can say yes or no to the originbal question, but we aren't "The Judge" who is the only one authorized to make that call.

 

WE are only guessing based on our own limited, and narrow knowledge as it was presented to us by other people using their limited and narrow knowledge.

[Eagledad]

Bible is pretty clear Scoutfish, but you have to read it to know who is right and wrong. Otherwise you are just making it as you go. Might as well be an atheist.

 

Barry

[BadenP]

Scoutfish

 

Yes humans have screwed up religion and many other things over time, and if you truly believe that the Bible,which spans a 4-5,000 year time span, is just a bunch of editorial opinions than as Barry said you might as well be an atheist.

 

Religion and scripture however are two different things, God did not create religion man did. Humans have been willing to entrust to others what and how to believe over time, mainly because it is a lot of hard work to maintain a solid relationship and parts of the Bible do seem contradictory and confusing. However when you put 100% of what you believe in the hands of others, priests, ministers, rabbis, etc, you are going to be subjected to their interpretations and viewpoints. Jesus condemned the religious leaders of his day, so why should it be any different today?

 

The bottom line in Scripture, is that when you die you will be judged by what type of personal relationship you had with God in your life, NOT what religion you belonged to, or doctrine you followed, or the social attitudes of humanity. In reality God is much more about relationships than religion. The reason is religions can help you develop that special relationship, or lead you down the wrong path of false worship and untruth, since all of them were created by man not God.

 

So as Yoda once said to Luke Skywalker, "Choose carefully".

[Scoutfish]

Baden, yeah, I know what religion is. Thanks though. You pretty much said what I said, but with different words and a whole shorter and neater.

 

" Might as well be an atheist. "

 

Says who? By who's opinion and judgement?

 

Which is my point exactly: Should I be an athiest based on your opinions or your beliefs? If mine are different - can you prove yours right and mine wrong? Based on what?

 

The bible, is basically just like a boss ( GHod) having his secretary ( us way back when) take dictation. God might have siuad to write this down, but it was written, re written, translated a whiole bunch of tiumes through different languages, cultures and people over time.

 

Kinda like a grapevine: The end isn't very close to how it started.

 

And why do I say that? JUst look at the differences between all the different denominations and religious practices amongst Christains.

 

Which one is the correct one? Has to be one if they all act different, so which one?

 

 

Personally, I don't have much regard for organized religion. I mean, I have no issue with anybody else practicing and living what they believe, but for me.. "organized religion" is all about power, politics, and greed.

 

[Once_Eagle-Always_Eagle]

Scoutfish:

 

By and large I like to lurk until someone says something arguably untrue about God or the Bible. Please cite examples of what you find are biblical contradictions and I'll do my utter best to reconcile for you.

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Once...I didn't say a single thing about God. Only about people.

But I will give you two fine examples of PEOPLE making mistakes and contradictions.

 

1)

MAT 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."

 

BUT THEN...

 

LUK 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

 

So...who was Joseph's father?

 

2)

 

ISA 14:21 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities."

 

BUT THEN...

 

DEU 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

 

So children will be punished for the sins of their fathers, yet, they wont be punished for the sins of their fathers?

 

Again, I did not, nor did I ever say God contradicted himself, nor did I ever say he messed up. I did say people who did the actual writing, translating and such, made all kinds of mistakes.

 

Think about it..not all words can be translated. Styles od speaking within a language or dialect are many, Then change the dialect or language or even culture...and what do you have.

 

People make religion in a way to suit their own nees..which is okay with me if that's what they want to do...just as long as they remember the changes they made.

 

And living in the south...I cannot tell you how many times I have heard people get upset about seeing a statue lor painting of a black angel or black Jesus. They get so offended over the fact he isn't portrayed as white.

 

Really? He isn't white? Even though he was born in the middle East. Next to Africa and India..where there are no native or natural white skinned people. At the very least, they will have tanned or dark olive skin tone. I mean...it's Israel and Egypt, and Sudan, etc.. There isn't a whole lot of white people just hanging around!

 

 

Then I have friends who think the King James bible was written straigh from God's mouth with absolutely no translation or change in words. NONE!

 

So everybody spoke perfect American english 2,300 years ago?

 

Bible scholars are now realizing some things don't add up. There are alot of marginal notes that were taken as fact. Some words were just translated to the most likely appropriate english.

 

Then look at sins: Why do we think one sin is worse or greater than another? Who told us that? Why is this sin a tiny one, but that one humongous?

 

Why is it wrong to murder, but we can shoot without question a young man messing aroud with our daughter?

 

And speaking of sins...lets look at the ten commandments. Was it really ten or was there two, but the second one coverd many things...which were somewhat itemized?

 

And again, lets get back to the whole Sabbath thing. God said we were to rest on the Sabbath.

 

Exodus 20:8 Moses says : "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath unto the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates....."

 

But the Sabbath falls on Saturday. So we can decide to ignore this command, but not others? Why the difference? Why can we chose to follow one rule, but ignore or change others to suite our needs?

 

Because man uses it for his own purposses.

 

Again, I did not say GOD, but people and organized religion!

 

And lastly, Satan. He is referenced soooo many times in the bible..yet many mainstream Christains say he/it doesn't exist.

 

WOW! That's pretty much their own admission as to something either being wrong in the bible or the fact they are suiting themselves and theior own pursuits over what is written.

 

How long before they write a bible that omits any and every detail about the deviol?

 

Me, I have my faith and my belief. And I do not need a group of people to gather and decide which way and how it should be.

 

 

Now, I am not saying the bible is all wrong. I am just saying that different people who have different versions of what happened - wrote their own version in the bible, They told things the way they sw them and understood them. Who knows who paraphrased and who quoted exactly.

 

Take 25 pewople and stand them side by side to watch any event happen and then later, you will get 25 uniquely differet versiopns told to you as to what happened.

 

So, just as I saids to the OP ...why ask us when we cant agree on anything else? What is to say we aren't giving OUR version as we were taught to understand it by people who told us their version as they understaood it?

 

The killer is in the details..and one wrong detail can mean everything!

 

 

(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[Scoutfish]

Oh, and thanks, but no thanks...I don't need to be reconciled.

 

I am strong in my faith. And I am at pesce with my faith.

 

Matter of fact, I was diagnosed with Stage III-B cancer less that 2 years ago. I ws given a 3 to 5 % chance of survival. But it was my faith that kept me totally at ease, in good spirits and saw me throug to the point where not only do I have a VERY clean bill of health, but where they cannot detect that I ever had cancer to begin with AND that there are no statistics to tell the experts why?

 

And I did not undergo chemo or radiation!

 

My point? I will argue with anybody that I am proof of miracles happening!

[Scoutfish]

And it is not my aim or goal to say anybody is wrong or misguided, or that my beliefs are better, worse , or more divine that yours of anybody elses.

 

My only goal is to say that as we all have so many different ideals and interpretations....that the OP shouldn't depend upon or rely on our own thoughts or beliefs to rate or grade his .

 

Besides, we all know God said we WERE NOT to judge one another.

[Scoutfish]

And....

 

Nah, just kidding!

I didn't have any more to add.

[packsaddle]

Trevorum, the Rastafarians on this island (and perhaps elsewhere) consider(ed) Haile Selassie to be (have been) the Messiah, Jesus Christ incarnate. I just checked and there is a brief section regarding this in Wikipedia.

The Rastas around here today don't push themselves on anyone (except for an occasional waft of ganja) but a few years back there was a militant element among them which led to violent repression. Although they believe in the divinity of the Messiah, they don't think of themselves in terms of 'Christian' versus 'non-Christian' and I think, neither does the Catholic church here. Some of the violent repression years ago had an attached religious element at that time, which at this time seems absent. But I'm not integrated into this society (and probably never will be) so my impressions are based on what I read and the few individuals who have spoken of these things.

 

A few days ago I had a nice conversation with Lennox Honychurch (Oxford educated historian of the island) and I asked him about this (I have just finished an astonishing book about the completely true story of some incredibly stupid Americans and Canadians who tried to invade and take over country) and Dr. Honychurch laughed and shook his head and mumbled something about stupid people and then said it was all completely factual and absolutely true. I mean...this book is incredible...you will laugh and roll your eyes and you will do this because there is no way anyone could make up a story like this. The book is called, "Bayou of Pigs". Read it. You might even remember that you heard something about these events in the news way back then. But the people who did this were deadly serious (and apocalyptically stupid) and it gives some flavor of the society here at that time, including the role of the militant Rastas and what happened, and why. If you would like to read a really engaging and much more detailed history of the island, read Honychurch's book, 'The Dominica Story'.

Tell you what, that book is really hard to find in the states and really expensive from Amazon. PM me with your address and I'll send you a copy.

[Once_Eagle-Always_Eagle]

"Oh, and thanks, but no thanks...I don't need to be reconciled. "

 

Then I won't waste my time. However, I want to strongly challenge you on another front, to make allegations against the Bible and organized religion and then subsequently refusing evidence or arguments that would challenge your position speaks for itself.

 

I would respectfully ask that you either engage bi-directionally in the conversations *or* keep your cynical comments to yourself.

 

 

 

[Trevorum]

pack, thank you- a generous offer. I FB'd you.

[Scoutfish]

"Then I won't waste my time. However, I want to strongly challenge you on another front, to make allegations against the Bible and organized religion and then subsequently refusing evidence or arguments that would challenge your position speaks for itself.

 

Refuse what evidence? I have evidence to back up what I said - just like you asked :

 

"Please cite examples of what you find are biblical contradictions and I'll do my utter best to reconcile for you.

 

And what do you think you can reconsile for me? It's right there in print. Therefore, your reconsile would only be your attempt to sway me with your personal take or opinion, which I do not need.

 

"By and large I like to lurk until someone says something arguably untrue about God or the Bible."

 

Of course, you tried to insinuate that I brought God into it. I didn't mention God, you did. I only mentioned a book,printed , translated and re-printed, reprinted again and reprinted and translated a hundred times over BY MAN .

 

"I would respectfully ask that you either engage bi-directionally in the conversations *or* keep your cynical comments to yourself.

 

 

So you are basically saying, If I do not change my views or agree with you...then I should be quiet? And cynical? How so? Because they do not put your personal vies on a pedistal? I suppose I could say the same. If you feel you must be cynical and try to reconcile everything I say of believe.....then perhaps you should refrain from commenting?

 

But no, I understand that my view is not the only one, most important one or is the standrad one. I know it is just mine. And as I have said in this thread and many more, I respect each and every one of you to have your own opinions.

 

Matter of fact, I respect them enough that I do not offer to reconcile them with my own beliefs if they do not match my own views, beliefs or opinions.

 

 

So as friendly advice: If you cannot bear for people to have views, thoughts, and opinions that differ from your own, perhaps you should refrain from reading on this site as you may end up asking every other poster if they want your reconcilations and possibly be insulted when they tell you

that they too do not need or want them.

 

You want to have different beliefs? Thatr's cool with me. I can accept and respect that.

 

You think everybody needs to mold to yours or get off the site? You are gonna be in for a long, tough, dissapointinmg ride.

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

Trev, it's on the way.

Scoutfish, "I cannot tell you how many times I have heard people get upset about seeing a statue lor painting of a black angel or black Jesus."

I'm guessing those upset persons were not black persons.

 

I've long maintained that Jesus might have looked a lot like Yassir Arafat or maybe Anwar Sadat. Mary may have looked a lot like Golda Meir...at least in later years. Who knows???? maybe Haile Selassie really WAS Jesus incarnate after all. I sure can't disprove it. None of them look like those art works which so many of us imprint on.

[jrush]

"By and large I like to lurk until someone says something arguably untrue about God or the Bible."

 

You know, it always reassures me when we have a self-appointed inquisitor who knows what is and is not true about God (at least, the Christian version of God) and the Bible, and can swoop in to intercept any untruths. What a relief.