Can you still be a Christian if

[Eamonn]

My religion is very much my own.

There are things that I don't understand and that's OK.

I am a lazy little fellow.

I was brought up as a Roman Catholic and I never really felt the need to look or go elsewhere.

About once a week I'm happy to join the other people around me saying the Creed.

I really don't feel any need to defend what I believe.

In my book anyone who changes water into wine on his first time out, is OK by me.

Ea.

[qwazse]

BP, I have to take issue with your Being a Christian is NOT:'s

 

1) Being able to define the miracle of the Resurrection by the very limited understanding human knowledge can provide.

 

Defined: A guy dies, violently and certainly. Then he's hiking with his homies, busting their crib, eating their fish, making campfires, and then hopping the clouds (without any COPE rigging). How much more sophistication do you need?

 

2) Defining your faith by what particular Denomination you are since all of them were created by humans and not God. Jesus showed us how to live our lives he did not create a religion, humans did.

 

But that's what Christians do! (A quote from the Koran: "The Jews are in 77 sects, the Christians are 777.")

 

I wish I could live my life bringing the best drinks to the wedding, clearing hospitals, and occasionally toppling some tables and beating people with ropes for selling stuff at church. I can't. So I'll just spin-off a new religion, just like my master did!

 

3) Dictating to others what and how to believe, thinking your way is the only true way.

Orthodoxy: straight teaching. Heterodoxy: crooked teaching. Christian history is mainly about dictating such things!

 

Okay, I'm being cynical here. Just a little. But the problem is we've equated being "Christian" with being "nice." And, even though many are, that's just not what defines the term.

 

The worse effect: folks who are non-Christian feel like they are considered second class citizens. I guess that's the downside of taking over for the Roman Empire and salvaging what was left of it by throwing the West into the Dark Ages. That imperious attitude is hard to shake.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

[Once_Eagle-Always_Eagle]

WOW! I wish I had seen this article two days ago when it was fresh out of the gate. Matters concerning the Christian faith excite me more than any other topic and I couldn't resist bringing the thread back to the original poster's question. I hope to provide biblical support to support the logical argument I'll make to follow:

 

===============================================

BIBLICAL ARGUMENT

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1) Romans 10:9 says "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, you will be saved" [emphasis added]. I will acknowledge it can be dangerous to invert a positive statement and draw a conclusion- but the tie connecting salvation to a belief in the resurrection certainly exists in scripture.

 

2) 1 Corinthians 15:14-19 says "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is USELESS and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be FALSE WITNESSES about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is FUTILE; you are STILL IN YOUR SINS. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are LOST. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most TO BE PITIED." I don't need to add any commentary to this section beyond these CLEAR words!

 

3) Romans 4:25 says "He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification." Justification is a 3 dollar theological word that meas God declares us "not guilty." Without the resurrection, we are still in need of justification before God.

 

===============================================

LOGICAL ARGUMENT

===============================================

Oh where to begin and still be succinct...

First, denying the resurrection is pulling out a MAJOR tenant of the New Testament. The moment you start to pick and choose what scripture you wish to believe and refuse, you have lost the battle. To deny certain parts of the Bible is to call The Book untrustworthy. If you declare The Book untrustworthy, you are declaring the author [God] untrustworthy. To declare God untrustworthy denies His character and refuses to believe in Him- much less the One He sent.

 

Second, the miracles Jesus performed were evidence that his claims to be God were true. The resurrection was the culmination and greatest of the miracles. Any person could have died and even claimed to die for the sins of all, but to rise from the grave was the evidence that what he declared was truth. It is the resurrection that seperates Jesus from every other 'prophet' from every other religion in the world.

 

I could go on and on and on with other arguments, but this is a scouting site and not a theology discussion board. Plus, I don't want to ramble on too much lest what I have already typed would go unread. The conclusion of my brief rant is "Believing in the resurrection of Christ is absolutely and utterly fundamental to believing in the person of Christ and following Him- which makes you a Christian."

 

 

[SSScout]

Amen, brother...

 

 

PRETTY PUL-LEEEZZE can we have a "Faith and Chaplaincy" forum???

[BadenP]

qwasze

 

But you gave no empirical evidence to refute any of my points, instead you highlighted humanity's intolerance, prejudice, and ignorance with trying to follow what the scriptures tell us of how we are truly supposed to live. You are correct that this same ignorance put us into the Dark Ages, countless numbers of wars, and enslavement of entire cultures by so called "good Christians".

 

The fact is we imperfect humans through our entire history have taken all the gifts given to us by our "God" and screwed ourselves out of paradise time and time again.

 

Maybe the better question would be, Can you still be a good Christian if you are human?

[Once_Eagle-Always_Eagle]

qwasze

 

I couldn't tell by your posts exactly where you fall doctrinely but I do read some cynicism that doesn't glorify God, so let me do this... I discovered long long ago that there is little to be gained by exchanging lengthy conversations of what I believe vs what you believe. This puts us in an adversarial relationship where one of us is wrong and one of us is right. Our exchanges would likely sway others by the eloquence of our logic and how well we can Google search. Instead, I've found much greater value in this- rather than say what I believe or trying to refute what you believe (and you refute what I believe), I would be happy to share why I personally choose to believe (my own story). I would also be happy to show what the Bible says. In very concise terms, the major themes that run through the book are:

 

1) God created EVERYTHING. He existed before time. He will exist after time ends.

2) Man is seperated from God by his choices (the free will God has given every man). This is a really simple definition of sin.

3) God loves each person and wants a relationship with us. However, it is our sinful choices that keep us seperated from God.

4) Left to his own ways, man would continue to decline morally and move further away from the intimate relationship God desires with each of us.

5) As a holy and just God, he is obligated to judge sin.

6) Because man is incapable of achieving the intimate relationship with God on our own, God acted and sent his only Son that we may be reconciled.

7) Believing in faith that God has restored the relationship through His son brings us into a right relationship with Him. (This one can be expounded but I'm trying very hard to keep this high level.)

 

It is not my role to persuade you. Similarly, there is no benefit to pointing to the people who claimed to be Christians and missed the mark, I would simply agree with you that these people don't align with what a 'Christian' should be. However, I would be more than happy to share with you what the Bible says about itself, God and the person and work of Jesus Christ.

 

[qwazse]

Sorry if my choice of the word "cynicism" was equated with faithlessness. There was a time when that wouldn't be the case.

 

BP - ... Dark Ages, countless numbers of wars, and enslavement of entire cultures by so called "good Christians" ...

OE-AE - ... the people who claimed to be Christians and missed the mark ... don't align with what a 'Christian' should be

 

Your summary judgments and condescension are duly noted. Scripture (and experience) tells me none are "good", not one. I'll work from that lens and avoid delusions that my walk is any better.

 

My point is, that the one and only thing that qualifies them as Christian was a firm belief in the resurrection from the dead -- not metaphorical dead, not post-modern zombie dead, but your garden-variety-more-certain-than-taxes-dead.

 

So, no, you can't ever be a good Christian. You can only merely be one. Given that, you can have varieties of zeal, or charity, or nobility, or theological astuteness or any number of other strengths. And depending on how your collection of gifts mesh with the times, you may get the additional label of "good." But if history is any indication, generations from now will judge your "goodness" critically, and you'll be labeled divisive, naive, or dictatorial. (Hopefully we'll sort this all out when we also are resurrected and have an eternity to sit and talk things through with the sectarians, ascetics, and fundamentalists of old -- or of many years to come if the Rapture still waits.)

 

Now, I've met folks in good conscience who could not bring themselves to believe in the resurrection. (In spite of someone like OE-AE laying it out fairly well for them.) But when in spite of this they try to hold on to the attribution of "Christian" because they don't want to look "bad", it comes off as very pathetic. Better that folks accept that they are non-Christian and simply work out being "good" until they nail down what they are putting their faith in.

 

P.S. SScout - What would be the advantage of this being in a "Faith and Chaplaincy" forum? Is it messing things up being in "Issues and Politics"?

[BadenP]

qwasze

 

Jesus Christ is the center for all Christianity, the Resurrection was to show Jesus's divinity by conquering death, and the promise that good Christians would receive that same gift when their human body dies and their soul lives on, these two beliefs are inseperable and the foundation of all Christianity. There are a few theologians who have written that Jesus was not truly resurrected and claim that early Christian leaders made up that story to keep their movement alive and growing. It all comes down to a matter of faith. I have had Catholic and Protestant clergy tell me they have or had serious personal doubts about the Bible and some of the doctrines of their Church, which goes to show all humans experience a crisis of faith in their lives, even those who have chosen to make it their life work.

[Beavah]

Yah, but what I want to know is if yeh can still be a Christian if you're still here, eh?

 

Weren't we all supposed to be enraptured by now?

 

Beavah

 

[qwazse]

There are a few theologians who have written that Jesus was not truly resurrected and claim that early Christian leaders made up that story to keep their movement alive and growing.

 

A few? Only a few? Like, how about all my strident Jewish buddies? But weather the outsiders thought the story was a fabrication or not, they identified Christians based on this belief. Later on, they identified them by a stubborn unwillingness to burn incense to Cesar, but that flowed out from the whole resurrection thing.

 

I get the whole doubt thing. But, often folks who confess to those doubts also confess to doubts about their own inferences. Some folks have been burned by "good" Christians, and this has shaken their faith to the core. So maybe not expecting a Christian to be "good" is a defense mechanism on my part.

 

What I don't get, is folks who would chalk the resurrection up to fabrication and wish to stay in a Christian camp.

 

Beav, had a good discussion with the Sunday School kids on this. Made things a lot more interesting for them! I owe the guy at least that.

[Once_Eagle-Always_Eagle]

"What I don't get, is folks who would chalk the resurrection up to fabrication and wish to stay in a Christian camp. "

 

And we agree! :-)

 

 

p.s. - No condescension or superiority in any previous post. I'm not superior to anyone in thought or deed. However, above all else, I am passionate about my Lord Jesus Christ... and I feel a great sadness for *anyone* that refuses the love and forgiveness offered through Him for whatever their reason is. One can be sad for the fate of another person without feeling any superiority over them.

[neil_b]

It's difficult for me to understand why anybody who doesn't believe in the basic teachings of a religion would want to be identified with that religion and instead seek to change the religion to suit their own ideas.

[BadenP]

neil

 

Good point, but that is exactly what people do and its called denominations. Roman Catholic, Anglican, Baptist, Lutheran, Mormon, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, etc., all of whom claim to be Christian but who have taken the teachings of the Bible and twisted or reinterpreted them to fit that particular sects idea of what a "true Christian" really is, to the point where their own individual minutia overshadows the basic truth.

[NJCubScouter]

qwasze,

 

This thread is about what Christians believe, which is why I have not weighed in, since it's really none of my business. However, I see you mentioned members of another religion (your "buddies") and what they think about what Christians believe. I think we can all assume that regardless of what Christians may believe about certain core concepts (like resurrection), people who are definitely not Christians are not going to share those beliefs. So whether its Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Shinto, Bahai, Wicca, Great Plains Native American spiritualism, the Force, or whatever else, I don't think we need to be singling out anybody in particular. Ok?

[acco40]

An atheist and a priest go out fishing one day on the lake. The are about a mile from shore and see some storm clouds off in the distance. However, the fishing is real good and both agree to continue casting and reeling them in for a few more minutes. They get caught up in the moment and are suprised to find the boat pitching violently in high winds as the storm has come over them.

 

Suddenly, a large wave knocks the atheist into the water a few feet from the row boat. "HSave me!", he screams. The priest looks at him and asks, "Do you believe in the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost?" (this was a few years ago before ghosts became spirits).

 

"Who cares", said the atheist, "Just save me!".

 

Again, the priest asks for a second time, "Do you believe in the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost?"

 

"Maybe, but please just save me!", states the atheist as he lunges toward the boat.

 

The priest quickly rows the boat out of his reach as the atheist goes under. He quickly bobs back up and for the third time, "Do you believe in the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost?"

 

"Yes, yes I do!", the atheist screams.

 

"You're saved.", exclaims the priest as he rows back to shore.