Investigations of CIA interrogators

[Basementdweller]

Wow, we honestly don't have a chance do we.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, sometimes I wonder, BD.

 

I get that people are angry. I lost close personal friends in the 9/11 attacks, and like nldscout I've lost friends in the combat operations in the Gulf as well. I know others who have come back less than whole, physically or psychologically.

 

That's why people who are angry shouldn't make these kinds of decisions. Left to our anger, a father or friend of a dead serviceman would nuke the middle east until all the sand was turned to glass. Which of course would leave all of the fathers and friends of the innocent victims of our holocaust to a lifetime commitment of nuking the United States until it turns to glass.

 

I'm a Christian fellow, so I confess at my core I view everything, even the Scout Law, through that lens. Do unto others and all that.

 

So da question is do you want your enemies to torture American service men & women, embassy workers and their families, etc.? Innocent or not. Because make no mistake, when torture is OK people torture innocent folks as well as guilty. Many more innocent folks than guilty. It's amazing the great confessions you get out of innocent folks when they are tortured. Saves all kinds of time and money. Do unto others...

 

Do yeh want to teach the world that an honorable man abuses helpless captives? Torturing small animals is a solid indicator of developing homicidal psychosis. Torturing humans is much worse. Who would encourage sons, daughters, friends to engage in behavior that leads to psychosis? Can you name the people well known for this behavior? Do you really want our children, our servicemen to be like them? Can yeh name the nations in history or now where this behavior was or is OK? Do yeh really want our nation to be like those? Do unto others...

 

If yeh really think it's just a "prank", try this. On your next scout trip, strap your son to a first aid backboard, hold a rag over his face, Hold his nose, force his mouth open and pour water down his throat a couple of dozen times while he struggles desperately for his life. Be sure to note the cyanosis from lack of oxygen, the terrified panic on your son's face, the bruises from straining against his restraints, the wracking cough. Ignore the risk of accidental death. Then try to explain to fellow adult leaders and the state authorities who arrest you and immediately remove your son from your care how it's only a "prank" or a form of discipline. Do unto others...

 

If yeh really feel that it's legal, despite the fact that the U.S. has successfully prosecuted both enemies and its own soldiers for this behavior in the past, then let go to trial. It's a question of law, eh? In America, we resolve these things through the courts, not through rogue actions by the Executive. We believe in da rule of law, and hold nobody above the law. I'll bet on our American legal system and my fellow citizens. Apparently the perpetrators of these acts won't, because they're doin' their best to cover up and avoid that sort of accountability, which demonstrates their lack of honor.

 

There are few things that are objectively, fundamentally wrong. Wearing patches in the wrong place or retesting on a board of review, despite what some may claim, is not one of them.

 

But this is. If yeh believe in an objective, absolute right and wrong of any sort, torturing helpless captives is it. It is an act of fundamental cowardice. It is against the letter and the spirit of the law, both ours and God's.

 

We condone it at the peril of our honor, our nation, and our very soul.

 

Beavah

 

[acco40]

The fact that I can debate these issues on-line with all the boneheads that don't agree with me (written with tongue firmly in cheek) without arrests being made, bombings and lynchings shows that yes, we do have a chance.

 

I think the USA has had a more successful history in integrating immigrant populations than Europe. Therefore, I think Europe will become more threatened with "in-home" terrorist cells than the USA. We however, will bare the brunt of scorn for being the superpower and figurehead of the the "west" or "infidels."

 

I also think the recent uprisings in various Arab and predominantly muslim countries bodes short term instability but possibly long term benefits for our interests.

 

Something about having a job, family, wife & kids seems to lessen the need for stridency on all fronts.

[Beavah]

I also think the recent uprisings in various Arab and predominantly muslim countries bodes short term instability but possibly long term benefits for our interests.

 

Amen to that.

 

Who would have thought even a year ago that Syria would be aflame from end to end with a population arisen in righteous anger against the abuses of that tyrant? The man who ordered the assassination of the prime minister of Lebanon, who has funded or channeled funding for most of the terrorists in the middle east.

 

The Boston Massacre was nothing compared with what the patriots of Syria are goin' through.

 

And all because oil prices got too low for the despots to buy people off, and an American university professor wrote a treatise on non-violent overthrow of despots that went viral throughout the Arab world.

 

Those people, our allies in the fight against state terrorism, are arising in fury against the very abuses like state-sponsored torture that we would condone.

 

Beavah

 

[JoeBob]

acco: In this context, I'll take being called a Bonehead as a compliment. Thank you!

 

Beavah: I don't mind that you don't want to be the one doing the waterboarding.

I do get angry that you fail to appreciate the ones who are willing to answer duty's call.

 

If the legal question of waterboarding was as black and white as you try to state it, why is it so often debated? Even Chris Matthews was asking his panel this morning if George Bush was getting enough credit...

[Basementdweller]

Joebob......what is your position in scouting?????? just curious more than anything.

 

 

... The United States is committed to the world-wide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the United States and the community of law-abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture and in undertaking to prevent other cruel and unusual punishment. I call on all nations to speak out against torture in all its forms and to make ending torture an essential part of their diplomacy...

 

George W. Bush, "Statement in Support of Victims of Torture". White House Press Release. 23 June 2003.

 

 

 

 

[JoeBob]

Basement - We disagree on the definition of torture.

 

I'm a Cubmaster for one more year and daycamp shooting sports instructor; unless you can get me fired! (Please oh please?)

 

I've actually filled out the profile associated with this forum, if you'd like to know more about me.

[evmori]

so ev.....doesn't that make us the terrorist???

 

No Basementdweller it doesn't make us terrorists. If you think it does, you have an extremely broad definition of what a terrorist is.

[acco40]

One who inflicts terror in others?

 

The systematic use of terror to coerce. So tell me why someone who waterboards someone else is not a terrorist?

 

 

[skeptic]

"The systematic use of terror to coerce. So tell me why someone who waterboards someone else is not a terrorist?"

 

Because our reason is better than their reason. Isn't it obvious?

[JoeBob]

Anyone who resists an enemy SHOULD be a terrorist to that enemy.

If waterboarding interogaters terrorize Al Quaeda, good!

 

Americans fight back. Anyone who fights back, using your semantic twist, is a terrorist. Are you a Quaker?

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Beavah wrote, "Do yeh want to teach the world that an honorable man abuses helpless captives?"

 

So, is killing "helpless captives" ok? Because from what I've seen and read, that pretty well describes OBL. Reports are that he hadn't left that house in years. We will never know if he was even armed (except for maybe that water pistol that was in some photos).

 

Water boarding seems pretty tame compared to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Ends justify means.

 

Did Allen West commit torture?

[packsaddle]

JoeBob, I don't want to stomp in Beavah's puddle because he's doing a pretty good job so far. But it might help some of us to understand your argument if you would describe what conduct, if any, that you think would 'cross the line' in terms of acceptable ways to question prisoners. And then explain how we can understand your reasoning the same way you do. Keep in mind that the CIA has used the methods in question on some truly innocent persons as well.

 

Edit: OK, same request to Brent.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[JoeBob]

Packsaddle.

Degrees of coercion are entirely situational.

What is at stake? Who are you questioning?

 

Waterboarding per se is not for asking questions. It develops a co-operative frame of mind in your subject. You waterboard a subject today, so that they will fear waterboarding in the future, and answer quesions for you in the mean time. Obviously that type of interogation assumes that the questioner has lots of time to humanely persuade the sybject.

 

For more immediate time scenarios (buried alive hostage, ticking nuke) there are hideously painful things that can be done to the human body.

 

Innocent? Like on the battlefield with an AK in your hand? "Honest! I just saw it lying there..."

You'll have to give me that scenario if you want a response.

 

 

Torture sets a bad example for our enemies?

 

Can you give me one example where the enemy quit using torture because they felt guilty that we weren't using torture, too?

I can give you several eamples where the enemy used outrageous tactics on our soldiers, because our refusal to torture taught them that we were too weak to stand up to them.

Daniel Pearl had his head sawn off for FUN. AQAP was not interested in interogating him. He had no secret information and was hardly a threat.

AQAP hoped the tape would frighten Americans away from the Middle East. It worked on some.

 

You?

[Basementdweller]

Ok..........

 

Joebob.....I was just curious what you do with in scouting......I was not threatening you or anything so childish.

 

 

I guess torture is completely acceptable.

 

 

EV....from our perspective we are not terrorist.....from their perspective we are.